Battle Royal: PHP vs Perl vs JSP vs ASP vs.................... - HTML Forums

Dr. Web · 03-29-2001, 09:44 PM

Who's your daddy?

I know PHP is hailed as one of the better server side languages to learn...partly because of its good database integration, and because its free.

I hear Pearl is the grand daddy of them all......but is it about to have a heart attack and retire?

What about the powerhouse Java/ JSP? Think it'll make it 12 rounds??!

I used to hear all sorts of raves about Coldfusion...but those days are long gone. Was it a passing fad?

And then there is ASP. The Microsoft-aka-Don King sponsored fighter. Is its muscle all marketing?

I am ramping up my skill set with ASP/ IIS/ VB Script, mostly because I don't yet have a server side language under my belt-and the market is great (in my area) for these skills.

Give me the pro's and con's for whatever you use.
Hows the overall package?
Database support?
Easy/ hard to learn?
Platform indipendant?
Hate it/ love it?

pixelmonkey · 04-02-2001, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Web
Who's your daddy?

I know PHP is hailed as one of the better server side languages to learn...partly because of its good database integration, and because its free.

Give me the pro's and con's for whatever you use.
Hows the overall package?
Database support?
Easy/ hard to learn?
Platform indipendant?
Hate it/ love it?

i do admit to having a UBB 5.45c and using it, i've tinkered with some php and i'm liking it even more! it all revolves around that "free sharing of knowledge" idea the www started on! things like PHP, and Linux KICK BUTT!!! but then there are good points from perl, such as Warez! Come on! there are points at which even I want free help!

expression, education, and world presents!
chris<pixelmonkey>

PS: this thread should be BIG before it's over!

kharris · 04-05-2001, 09:04 AM

Time for my two cents.

Let me start off by saying that at work I use PERL as the standardized Server Side Scripting Language (SSSL). I didn't know PERL when I got here, but it only took a moderate knowledge of C and about a month to learn PERL good enough to start creating fully functional web apps. As far as I am concerned, PERL is like C with a LOT of useful little functions and other simplicities which makes it a very easy language, usually, to debug. I really like PERL, and it probably is my favorite language right now.

Lately, I have been doing a little PHP for my personal website, and I only started looking in a different direction for lack of ability to debug my PERL, because I am unable to view an error log. This is one reason I like PHP, as it is being parsed by the server, its errors actually appear in the browser window. This is a very nice convenience. Another thing that I like about PHP is the fact that PHP is an embeded scripting language, so you just put PHP where you need it and the rest of the file is just the HTML. This is another nice feature.

I have seen only a small amount of ASP, JSP, and Cold Fusion, so I am not going to comment about any of those.

So, in my opinion people new to web development would probably have an easier time learning PHP. Overall though, PERL has the upper hand right now and I do prefer it over PHP, but they are so similar in actual code, once you know one, the other isn't too far away. This is because PHP was born from PERL, I belive.

Jacob · 04-05-2001, 06:53 PM

Hey guys,

<---- BEGIN PERL & PHP AD --->
As a person that needs to create scripts quickly and easily to take care of jobs, I would have to recommend PERL or PHP. Both are easy to learn, and can be picked up easily just by reviewing premade scripts. So if your looking to learn by example (which works the best for me) PERL or PHP are the way to go!
<---- END PERL & PHP AD --->

The above posts explain some of the details about the two, so I won't repeat them. And if anyone needs some good book recommendations just let me know, i've got plenty

Regards,

kevin · 04-05-2001, 07:16 PM

kharris,

With PERL, try using the following line to display errors instead of logging them, just stick it at the begining of the script somewhere, not sure if it works on all servers....

use CGI::Carp qw(fatalsToBrowser);

Regards,
Kevin

Ruttiger · 05-15-2001, 12:15 AM

okay, i agree with most all that's been said here...I haven't had the time to learn JSP or ASP yet, so i'll just do the PHP vs. Perl comparison here..

PHP is fun and easy to learn, powerful, and fast...Perl is a little bit older, but has so many modules and packages that you can just easily plug in...

So...what languages is best for what?

SPEED:
-------
First off, PHP should be run as mod_php, and perl should be run as mod_perl - unless you're worried about security, in which case you might have a su_exec wrapper setup for PHP, or run perl as a regular user-owned script. Most likely you're not running a 40MHz 386, so you don't really need to worry about speed, but if you get a LOT of traffic (like BigResources (kiss....UP...

), then you might need to.

PHP was designed for web programming while Perl was adapted for it. You've probably seen the popular CGI.pm package that handles the basic web functions you'll need - these are built into PHP. The difference is that PHP's are already compiled, while Perl's are not. This gives PHP the speed advantage here.

DIFFICULTY:
-----------
Knowing both languages pretty well, I'd have to say that PHP is a little easier than Perl. You may disagree, but the online documentation is well-laid out, and the functions are very intuitive and easy to understand. Of course there's no great O'Reilly PHP series out yet, but you'll be able to get by with http://php.net and http://phpbuilder.com just fine.

Also, as mentioned above, PHP is great because it's easily embedded in with HTML - if you've programmed with Perl HTML templates, you'll know exactly what i'm talkin about!

POWER/ABILITY:
--------------
Perl. Being new, it'll take a long time for PHP to get anywhere near the power of Perl. For example, you still cannot get a PHP script to timeout properly while executing shell programs/scripts...they say they're workin on it for a future release. I know there were a few times I've had to use a Perl script instead of PHP (just can't think of 'em right now

). So, if you wanna go with PHP, you'd still better have the Camel book (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pperl2/) and the Cookbook (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/cookbook/) handy, and a good knowledge of at least how to get a Perl script workin.

One of the Downsides of PHP is that since the core functions are compiled in with the software, some features need to be compiled in with PHP. Examples of this would be the IMAP functions, (--with-imap), and I believe aspell...so, if you're not the sysadmin, and you need a new library added, then you're goin to have to bug him/her!

WHICH TO USE?
-------------
I try to use PHP any chance I get, and only resort to Perl when I absolutely need it. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Perl, but I've found that I can develop a PHP script MUCH faster than with Perl. As others have mentioned, DB programming is very easy with PHP - for one, you can use persistant connections for quicker connects (not sure if Perl supports this). However, the use of PHP should be for web applications - if you're doin server or user maintenance scripts, go with Perl or shell programming..

HOPE THIS HELPS!
----------------
I don't wanna preach like i'm an expert here - I apologize if some of this is incorrect - correct me if so, please! I started with Perl, and moved everything to PHP, and it's made life so much easier for me. Learn both if you have the chance, and make sure to get the mentioned O'Reilly Perl books, cause 90% of all you'll need to know about Perl is in there!

Gimme feedback if you get a chance, I'd like to know what ya think about my comparisons here!

thanks,

PCheese · 06-06-2001, 07:37 AM

...to say it but ASP has to be the best.

Much as I loathe Microsoft for being the corporate chuntney ferrets that they are I'd have to say that having the ability to reference DLLs and control SQL databases, XL, Word and more from a web page is just too good.

I've never seen PHP so I wouldn't know how easy that sort of stuff is but I've used - JHP (too damn finicky), Perl (time to retire old friend) and even ColdFusion (ooh, binding-much).

But all this is going to change (more than likely) with the incoming rush of XML and .Net technology.

Ruttiger · 06-06-2001, 07:49 AM

sir cheese...

i have to agree...

i've just started to work with ASP...and i couldn't believe how great it is. I gotta stick with the Linux stuff, just because...but i'm goin to probably build up my own PHP libraries to mimic ASP (when i can find the time, of course!). And, ya...using DLLs is awesome.

My site has features that could **REALLY** benefit from COM objects, so I'm probably goin to setup a small private ASP site from my home computer to handle these tasks, then throw it back to my Linux server.

anyway, It's sad to see Perl losing it's practicality...but, don't count PHP out. There's some good folk workin on that project..and if I get started with Linux programming, I might join up too...

so, the battle's not up yet!

Ruttiger · 06-13-2001, 08:14 AM

Anybody heard of this?

http://www.apache-asp.org/

It's an ASP port to linux - Perl only.

I dont know much about this, hopefully I'll get a chance to try it out.

Horus_Kol · 10-02-2002, 04:27 PM

I have used PHP with a MySQL database. It has been incredibly simple to learn and use - 4 months ago I had no idea what either of them were.

Our company uses an off the shelf web-database system which uses ASP and an MS Access database. This system has been in development for a few years and by a group of "experts". This off the shelf system keeps corrupting the data, and one recent update actually changed the database structure, forcing all the data to be entered manually. And we are having problems with the ASP code in the latest version of the system.

Mind you, I have developed a low opinion of Access databases over the years.

So PHP wins over ASP.

Don't know about the other languages though.

torrent · 10-02-2002, 05:22 PM

In the next two years there are really only going to be two major players. Microsoft's .NET framework and JSP. These two technologies are going to be the ones the large corporations invest in.

My organisation (one of the largest in the world) is investing heavily in Java, JSP, J2EE, and XML technologies. Java is immensely powerful and versatile, and while it does command a steeper learning curve it pays dividends in the end. JSP give web pages a true state engine.

PHP - *sigh* I wish this was where the future is, but I don't believe it is. Sure, it will do well in the small, and maybe even medium business sector and especially well in the home web page market, but it can't seriously compete with JSP. Unless version 5 turns out something which can seriously challenge the JSP and .NET frameworks then I don't think it will cut it.

ColdFusion - having played with CF for a couple of months now I really have to be honest and say that while it does have some nice features, it really is not a "big-boys" language. It's exceptionally easy at doing the easy stuff in CF but it can be quite a trial doing more complex things. The language seems to concentrate on providing functions which "do it all" as opposed to feature-rich programming functions. I also have to be honest and say that Macromedia's support forums suck big time. Even with the recent CF J2EE release, I just don't see CF competing with .NET or JSP.

Dr. Web · 10-02-2002, 10:22 PM

wow! I posted this one a LONG time ago! whoa!

Torrent, I agree on some points... but not all. Having used CF for everything but telnet sessions, I can do everything my intranet requires without CF breaking a sweat. Since CF just dropped CF pro server down to $750, and the fact that it has an extremely mellow learning curve-I'd say it has a big chance at the small, medium market. In fact, with macromedia pushing it along-it'll gain more exposure.

Now lets talk Java/ JSP. My company (not the hugest in the world, but really big nevertheless) has wasted....wasted over 5 million dollars and 3 years on a JSP project that I could have written in coldfusion in 2 or 3 months. They jumped on the IBM/ Java/ JSP bandwagon because of some reason or another, and what they found out was this:

Java/ JSP hosting and development is very expensive.

Development cycles lengthen considerably.

The JSP/ Java 'cool features that other ss languages don't have' are waaaaaaaaaaaaay more than they both need and were taking advantage of.

That our current methods (ASP, and now solely CF) are more than sufficient at exceeding their needs.

Since I've been at my current employer, we have put out nearly 30 web applications between two developers... and we do every bit of coding, graphics, database queries, as well as administer the webservers/ database servers/ file servers.

Now, we also have had full fledged teams of JSP/ Java developers working on projects (only coding jsp/ java and ousourcing the HTML and graphics).... and they put out 3 applications in the last 2 years. WTH??!

So my view is simple: if you want rapid application development that doens't break the bank, grab anything EXCEPT jsp/ java.

If you want the maximum security, ultimate features, and most precise control over everything... then take java/ jsp on a unix flavor platform.

I used to think that java/ jsp was the future... and I still do, but only for a select few. I doubt that many organizations will take advantage of enough of Java's features to warrant the cost, or be able to hold a budget/ development cycle up against the other technologies.

*** Side note, my company scrapped the plan to convert all web applications to java/ jsp. They can't get the productivity out of the JSP teams... whether internal or outsourced to be anywhere close to what 'the rest of us' are achieving-and then they found out what it costs to host with IBM's websphere.

$12,000 to license a single server? I hope that comes with the kitchen sink! With prices like that, and the economy the way it is, IBM is forcing anyone but the largest and most powerful corportations to use anything else. There is no way that java/ jsp will take over middle/ small business. There just isn't enough money and time to get jobs done with that bloated 'big boys' toy. ASP/ CF/ PHP have the market on small/ medium web ... unless your VP starts sleeping with the IBM saleswoman!

Paul · 10-02-2002, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by torrent
In the next two years there are really only going to be two major players. Microsoft's .NET framework and JSP. These two technologies are going to be the ones the large corporations invest in.

My organisation (one of the largest in the world) is investing heavily in Java, JSP, J2EE, and XML technologies. Java is immensely powerful and versatile, and while it does command a steeper learning curve it pays dividends in the end. JSP give web pages a true state engine.

PHP - *sigh* I wish this was where the future is, but I don't believe it is. Sure, it will do well in the small, and maybe even medium business sector and especially well in the home web page market, but it can't seriously compete with JSP. Unless version 5 turns out something which can seriously challenge the JSP and .NET frameworks then I don't think it will cut it.

ColdFusion - having played with CF for a couple of months now I really have to be honest and say that while it does have some nice features, it really is not a "big-boys" language. It's exceptionally easy at doing the easy stuff in CF but it can be quite a trial doing more complex things. The language seems to concentrate on providing functions which "do it all" as opposed to feature-rich programming functions. I also have to be honest and say that Macromedia's support forums suck big time. Even with the recent CF J2EE release, I just don't see CF competing with .NET or JSP.

Hi,
What things do you find more powerful in JSP then PHP. I never looked at JSP so I am very interested. I love PHP because it's so much eaier and faster than any language out there, atleast for me.
Paul

Dr. Web · 10-02-2002, 11:10 PM

heres JSP/ Java at work for you:

http://www.jonesknowledge.com/landing_eed.php

this is the company I used to work for. They spent about 4 years developing four products in JSP (that were initially developed in PHP). All four were scrapped last month, meaning you can still access them until years end... albeit ZERO support. None. Nada. No developers exist any longer.

I actually worked for Jones Knowlege on the e-education project as a HTML/ Javascript guy for the better part of a year. On that project alone there were lots of developers on the job... including about 50 full time java/ jsp developers, 8 full time HTML/ javascript developers, outsourced graphics people, 6 full time database people, and a few sysAdmins.

Having worked on that specific project with the jsp/ java development in sync with my own development, and then coming into another position... I can say that even coldfusion could replicate the entire project. They didn't do anything but use massive object oriented practices (which you can do a simplified form of in both asp and cf). I couldn't see a thing that they were doing that could ONLY be done in Java. (I realize that there are limits to the other ss langs, but as a web client??)

And the thing is, they were selling the products the entire time. They have tons of schools and universities using them right now, even though they just let every single one of their developers go last month. Then budget said: Java/ JSP costs too much to develop and maintain.

This is just one example of how using 'the most powerful tool' to create web applications can fail miserably.

Noone is going to give up on ASP... especially since its free with windows installs.

CF? Its getting waaaay cheaper to host on, and its the closest to HTML coding out of any ss language-making it a natural second choice to HTML veterans.

Then you have php which has wide acceptance because you can do everything for free (mySql included).

.net Don't know how I feel about this either. I think .net/ vb/ java will make excellent application tools... I just think they are supreme overkill for web applications.

scoutt · 10-02-2002, 11:20 PM

well just to comment on what doc said about IBM. we use Websphere and the IBM's AS/400 here at work and I think they mainly code in CF, not sure on this and have to find out. I pretty much can tell you it is not JSP/Java.

now you really can't compare php and ASP. PHP will win hands down because Unix/Linux is the most popular webserver and that means you can't run ASP on it. well you can but you can't run access so what is the point.

Running windows server is waaaayyyy more expensive but becoming more popular.

Perl and PHP are not even the same, Perl will win this one hands down as it is more of a backend script and is more powerful back there. I believe PHP will do a real turn around in the next couple of years and start to do a lot more. but just my opinion.