Where have all the posters gone?

[Horus_Kol]

*sits down, pats pipe and then lights it*

"Gather round, young 'uns, ol' pappy is gonna tell you of a time long since gone from these here places..."



When i started here, there was all sorts of high minded discussion about mathematics, cosmology, philosophy, religion, biology, sociology, politics - and for the most part, the conversations were civil (strong arguments, but civil, all the same)...

Its been a long, long time since we had any of these... but then, we seem to be missing some of the old players - Blueangel, Entimp, Putts...


Now, I'm not talking about other conversations that some other members have had where all they wanted was a soapbox to pronounce their own views and slam any others that were not in their scope... we've seen a fair few of those over the past twelve months - I'm sure most people remember Feonten...


Have we at HTML Forums been (dis)affected by the same apathetic malaise that seems to be hitting every other part of society? What will become of all this when we can no longer share ideas with passion for our own viewpoint and respect for anyone else's?



*This has been a public service broadcast on behalf of the "Think More" campaign*

[Disturbed]

I agree... I've been kinda gone for a bit, but I'm back now... ( sucks about Feo he was my favourite member here )

Disturbed,
Proud supporter of the Think More campaign

[erisco]

a time long since gone from these here places...
Indeed. In matter of fact I hadn't been here too long when Putts left. Entimp I have never seen until recently when he popped up in a couple places... most of the people that I did actually know around here have faded away and vanished... I actually find myself kind of alienated here now.

[micomator]

I left because every time I expressed an opinion I got shot down by a few posters, who make themselves out to be completely objective angels. They never say anything against anyone, their opinions are so filtered that they pretty much never have anything to say. And when they do speak it's obvious they are trying their hardest to sound intelligent and not actually bring up any issues. They are boring and their sniping makes everyone else filter what they say. Thanks Nox, Erisco, and Ferret.

This place is a boring ****-hole now.

[Pegasus]

Well, when you have to resort to deriding others and profanity to get your point across, you've pretty much made a point, haven't you?

Horus, I thought you gave up smoking? *g*

The Internet has changed over the past 5 years or so, so why shouldn't this place change a bit, too? Our regular members are getting younger every day, or so it seems. They're learning HTML in high school, whereas it used to be only offered officially at the college/university level. We've had passionate discussions in here, but on things that are important to young adults, not necessarily things that are important to all adults.

Mind you, we had our share of "winners" with the old crowd, too. There wasn't always respect for other people's opinions in some of the discussions. I guess Real Life has just finally caught up with the former college/university students that we had in here before. ;)

Peg

[micomator]

There we go again. I was only trying to make a point and express the reason I left. But I can't do that, I cannot utter a bad word about any other person. It was not derision, it was the truth of why I rarely visit this place. And I do not have to resort to profanity, I just choose to. It's the way I speak, and I will not censor it just so you can live in your perfect virtual world where everyone sings songs and lives in harmony. By posting that first sentence peg you have confirmed the exact point of my post.

[jaywhiting]

Too true, if we cant express a point ourselves, what is the point of coming onto sites like these?

"deriding others"

I think micomator was trying to tell those posters something about they way they are and by your post peg i see it confirms it.

Why is it we cant blame anyone when you just pretty much said teenagers are the source of the problem? Yeah thats fair, jesus christ, some people have to get over themselves and accept other people have views too.

Other people have views too

look i've outlined what some people dont understand clear as day, i look forward to posting again in this thread soon, you know, like after you shoot down my opinion?

[Horus_Kol]

I don't read that Peg said that teenagers were the "problem"... she was just pointing out that the shift in demographics from people in their mid-20s to people in their mid-teens has affected the what subjects are discussed here...

Still, strong and misdirected responses like the two above do seem to indicate a general laxing of respect of other people and a trigger-happy, scatter-shot, jump-to-conclusions kind of mentality around here that wasn't as prevalent in earlier times...

[micomator]

I dont agree that my post was misdirected, and I don't think that it is jumping to conclusions. I've been on these forums for two years, I'd call that more of a steady shift, not a jump. What you call a lack of respect, I call being straight forward.

[jaywhiting]

I believe the question posted in the title of the is "Where have all the posters gone?" And why can we not answer that question without it being marked down as an answer of disrespect to the people who do not like to hear it?


What will become of all this when we can no longer share ideas with passion for our own viewpoint and respect for anyone else's?


Now, regardless of the fact that I am younger than you, I have still the ability to realise by defending what i said, you have just contradicted yourself, now I am confused as to what answer you would like to hear? Did you want your original question answered? I personally think it would be better to recieve an answer from people that will not "dumb-it down"? Of course because I am a "disrespectful youth" my answer will not even have any value compared to one of someone who learnt HTML at a University/College level :O Peg may have attempted to answer some of the questions but still she did not answer the main one, Skipped around the point actually. The reason many posters are leaving are because, after expressing what they think, they are responded to by such derogatory comments as ,and yes i quote:


Still, strong and misdirected responses like the two above do seem to indicate a general laxing of respect of other people and a trigger-happy, scatter-shot, jump-to-conclusions kind of mentality around here that wasn't as prevalent in earlier times...

[Horus_Kol]

interesting...

to be honest, we can only speculate why people have left the forums - there isn't any exit questionnaire like banks have when you decide to close your account with them...

What this thread has actually become is a discussion on what the current members feel to be the problem with the thread...

Now, not really wanting to get into a "he said, they said" thing here, but I believe the first real snipe in this thread was from Mico:
I left because every time I expressed an opinion I got shot down by a few posters, who make themselves out to be completely objective angels. They never say anything against anyone, their opinions are so filtered that they pretty much never have anything to say. And when they do speak it's obvious they are trying their hardest to sound intelligent and not actually bring up any issues. They are boring and their sniping makes everyone else filter what they say. Thanks Nox, Erisco, and Ferret.

This place is a boring ****-hole now.

Now, I'm sorry if you find my comments derogatory, but I was saying it how I see it (or is that only allowed if you are under 20 these days)?

I work with teenagers on a regular basis - some I see quite often, others fairly infrequently... I will give each of them enough time to put their points of view across, and I hold no prejudices against any of them until they show by their own behaviour.
but I will still admonish them when necessary... to be honest, I do this to people my age that I work with, and older... I don't do it to be a hardass - which you are probably thinking right now - but because of situations like when I am talking to one member of the group, and another one interrupts without waiting, or when they are being generally insulting - either of other individuals within the group, or just being discriminatory...

Now I'm going to say something that you are probably going to rail at, because I most certainly would have when I was ten years younger...
teenagers are still growing up...
to be honest, everybody is... I can look back at the person I was ten years ago, and I can now see that I didn't know everything, and that I was a jackass, and that I was still growing up...
I can also see that I am still growing now, and I that I will be growing in 10, 20, 50 years...
And I can also see that I did not appreciate any of that when I was a teenager, and whatever I was doing I was right, and there was nothing wrong with my attitude - just with everybody else's...

My conclusion - you want freedom of speech and opinion - well, those come at a price... self-restraint...

You may be right, and there are people out there who are critical of what you write - but maybe they are being critical of how you write it, rather than the opinion itself?

And being blunt or "straight-forward" is simply a euphemism for being rude...


Now, there are a couple of ways in which you can respond to this thread - one of them will affirm everything I have written, and one will not...
I respectfully suggest that you think on it a while before responding - I took the time to reread each of yours posts a couple of times, and I would consider it a courtesy if you would do the same for mine...

[jaywhiting]

I do understand Horus_Kol, and no I am not going to rail at, because I have realised that somewhere down the line :P We all have our opinions, and we all have our ways of putting them across. Looking as something stated before by Pegasus, I have to agree, things are changing a bit regarding younger people. I suppose what is acceptable language to us may be considered rude to you, I apologise for that.

What me and mico have said, you have to understand, has come from several incidences around the site, that we tried to discuss with the people that we had a problem with privately. This was to no avail, so we saw this thread and decided to seize the opportunity to see if others felt the same way. We may have been wrong in assuming this was the place to explain this, although we would have much prefered it if someone had actually said something along the lines of "If you have a problem with some of the members on the site, please take it up with them." Rather than automatically assuming it was just an excuse for another teenager to deride someone they should respect.

I apologise again, I see you simply wanted to know why the topics had changed from some high-minded discussion to a lower tone. You were just suggesting reasons why this could be, not actually saying thats what it was. Going back to what i said before, we simply saw the title of the post, and seized the opportunity to point out some things we did not like about this site. Next time we will (yet again) try to solve these matters , privately, with the people involved. I know you would prefer that to us trying to get everyone involved, does all that I have just said make sense to you?

Shall we simply put this down as another time, another place?

[Pegasus]

You know, if you have a problem with another member, you can bring the subject up with a mod or Admin. We may have to suggest that you just put the other member on your ignore list because we understand that some people just don't like each other. It's a fact of life and there's nothing we can do to change it. If there's something we can do about the situation, however, we'll do it. That's what we're here for.

Peg

[nox-Hand]

This post may be too far out, so I leave it in the hands of the moderators to decide. I have already flagged it myself.

Right, let's see here..


I would like to point out that the whole "this forum is too strict and boring etc, the mods/admins have an evil anarchy going on here, bla bla bla" discussion is somewhat... semi-true.

We *did* have some troubles (in my opinion) a while back (dating back half a year, probably) where the mods/admins were in too much power and they blacked out too much, and accidentally deleted things they should not have. It is no more in my opinion, and they have stepped down to a more "equal" level again. I mention no names or examples, but I felt that way once and I made darn sure people knew about it :lol:




Thanks Nox, Erisco, and Ferret.

This place is a boring ****-hole now.

Why, thanks. :)

Honestly, I would actually probably want to start swearing at you right about now, but let's keep this one civilized as conduct on this forum requires..

Well, I would have liked to know that I was annoying you and what I do wrong, for if I learn nothing of my mistakes what hope do I ever have of correcting them? Seriously, pull yourself together and tell me if you don't like me cause it won't help you suddenly lashing out at me without telling me exactly why, now, will it? I think you were the one who... *checks in thread* aha! There we are:

What you call a lack of respect, I call being straight forward.

Is it not lack of respect to bottle up feelings and then suddenly telling us all that three specific people have destroyed your this lovely port of discussions rather than simply telling us either via PM or by a thread? If you feel like it, sure, make yourself a "Why I seriously dislike nox-Hand" thread and come forward with it all. If there is one thing I dislike more than being disliked it's not being told about it. If I am forever ignorant of peoples potent dislike against me I will never correct it and I shall forever be in a constant reverie!



On to the point at hand, where have all the posters gone and what happened to the great discussions?

For my part, I am like welshsteve, busy!

Well, not really busy, more like preoccupied. I spend loads of time here but I just don't have the time to engage in discussions that require lots of attention currently due to my life as is. I have a PC ban that means limited PC time, I have been disallowed PC at school and I have started putting in lots of effort at school (has given me a boost in grades, too!). People change, face it, this place is - like most places - fluid in the amount of chatter we get here. Sometimes full days can go by without something actually happening.



I also have a problem following a nice little HTML/PHP/CSS/AJAX/etc discussion since I have never actually gotten myself about to learning either of them! I check the Linux subforum once a day as that's the place I can do some good, yet since hardly anyone comes there but Apache help-seeking people I can't pitch in there. I originally came here for some help on something small and then I just sorta... stuck here! Sorry about that if it's become the end of all good at this forum, and I realise that the fact that I get the Superflouos award two years in a row means I chatter too much, but I hope not everyone feels that way.

Geez, now I am actually hoping someone will start the "nox-Hand, rant time!" thread so I can hear all this dislike!





Okay, sorry I am going on the attack now but I have really gotten rather upset about this message which I probably wouldn't have done if my social life had not just had the biggest twist I have had for half a year. I am on the edge, and that post almost pushed me over it. Pray that it happens some day for it *would* result in my instant ban from this place. Once I go evil, noone likes me :)


Okay, I need to stop now and go watch some telly or something because I fear any hope of an intelligent discussion will be executed if I continue...

I look forward to following this discussion.

[Horus_Kol]

We *did* have some troubles (in my opinion) a while back (dating back half a year, probably) where the mods/admins were in too much power and they blacked out too much, and accidentally deleted things they should not have. It is no more in my opinion, and they have stepped down to a more "equal" level again. I mention no names or examples, but I felt that way once and I made darn sure people knew about it :lol:
There was trouble last summer and autumn - and i'll agree that some of the mod's that were around then were probably not exemplars of best member behaviour...

in defence of some of the mod's behaviours (and myself) - we had some really difficult members who seemed to rally around and enjoy taking snipes at members and mods alike, and then cry foul when they were brought to task...

thankfully, those problem members (and mods) aren't here anymore, and i think we can get back to a happy place...


Jay - that was a well-written response, and I do agree with your points - so there's not really a lot more to be said, I guess...

given certain histories, however - "automatically assuming it was just an excuse for another teenager to deride someone they should respect." - after replacing teenager with member, you get what was pretty much happening for a while not too long ago...

anyways - it would seem we're heading back onto a good, thoughtful discussion...

[dimeric]

I've had a few slightly "emotive" discussions but i think people need to remeber to remain calm. Frequently people assume you are being rude or trying to be obtuse when your posts could equally be interpreted as being polite and agreeing. Its important to remeber (im freequently guilty of this of forums) that sarcasm and tone of voice arn't transmitted, even if it is a "rich text" box!

Either way im always up for a rant about politics or science, i just find them easier to do face to face, although on forums you can think carefully about ideas before replying which is nice.

Either way more academicish discussions sound like a good idea!

[torrent]

It seems a tad quieter around here nowadays but this place was always about quality, not quantity and that in my opinion remains as high as ever.

[ngaisteve1]

*sits down, pats pipe and then lights it*

"Gather round, young 'uns, ol' pappy is gonna tell you of a time long since gone from these here places..."



When i started here, there was all sorts of high minded discussion about mathematics, cosmology, philosophy, religion, biology, sociology, politics - and for the most part, the conversations were civil (strong arguments, but civil, all the same)...

Its been a long, long time since we had any of these... but then, we seem to be missing some of the old players - Blueangel, Entimp, Putts...


Now, I'm not talking about other conversations that some other members have had where all they wanted was a soapbox to pronounce their own views and slam any others that were not in their scope... we've seen a fair few of those over the past twelve months - I'm sure most people remember Feonten...


Have we at HTML Forums been (dis)affected by the same apathetic malaise that seems to be hitting every other part of society? What will become of all this when we can no longer share ideas with passion for our own viewpoint and respect for anyone else's?



*This has been a public service broadcast on behalf of the "Think More" campaign*

I think this is fact of life, changes. Nothing will remain the same all the time.:)

[twodayslate]

I am going to have to agree with micomator on part of this. The mods can get out of hand. I think in my first week here, I got a warning (pre ban thing) by Peg for having a list (which made my sig one line too long, oh no!) in my sig. I would not say that is a warm welcome! Then when I express my opinion in the review forum someone seems to get mad because their site sucks. People should learn to take it.

:burnt:

So yes, I think that the reason why no one posts that much is because of the rules (take it easy) and because we have the noobs who ask questions like "i want 2 put a linkie on my myspace, how do i do dat?". I do not think they could hold an intelligent conversation about religion or politics. :lol:

edit:// Perhaps the mods just seem out of hand because most of the active members are mods and you do not want to get in trouble with them, then this place would be boring!

[Pegasus]

So what I hear you saying is that "Your sig doesn't fit in with our guidelines. Please adjust it accordingly." is not an acceptable way of phrasing things, but "Gees you're stupid because you don't know how to properly code a site" or "Your site sucks" is perfectly acceptable.

Peg

[twodayslate]

I am assuming that was sarcastic.

I am not complaining that you told me to change my sig, I do not think that it deserved a warning.
Don't you think that when you review a site that the person wants a true and honest review. Reviews can be positive and negative. You should not sugarcoat a review. I hope when I ask for a review that you do not sugarcoat it.
I do not go right out and say YOU SUCK AT CODING! I say that after they complain that my first review was too harsh and that they think their site looks great.

edit:// The only ones that I have "insulted" is Romeo and the devil worshiper guy.
Both of their sites were horrible and were an insult to the design world.

[Pegasus]

I don't sugarcoat any of my reviews, but I do try to keep them encouraging, rather than discouraging. You can point out errors without making someone feel bad about the mistakes they've made. Suggesting options for change says that you've taken the time to consider their site carefully, rather than just took a quick look and made an unchangeable decision.

Sarcastic? Not quite. I'd like to know because from what I'm hearing, my requests for civility are "socially unacceptable" around here.

Peg

[twodayslate]

Do not get me wrong, you are a nice guy. I do not mean to disrespect. I do not think you would be a mod if you were socially unacceptable. ;)

All I am saying is that some people have to be told the truth. Yet when they are told the truth they ignore it. :mad:

[Pegasus]

It doesn't matter how you put it, if people want to ignore the truth, they will. However, those that aren't too sure what the truth is are more willing to listen when the words aren't confrontational.

Peg

[twodayslate]

This is the thread that sparked it for me. http://www.htmlforums.com/website-review/t-new-witchery-88446.html
This guy is crazy if he thinks that site looks good. Do you not agree?

[Pegasus]

Opinions will differ between people. It's a fact of life. We tried to help him and he decided not to take our advice. That's up to him. There's nothing that says a person has to do what the reviewers recommend.

Peg

[micomator]

Well, I would have liked to know that I was annoying you and what I do wrong, for if I learn nothing of my mistakes what hope do I ever have of correcting them? Seriously, pull yourself together and tell me if you don't like me cause it won't help you suddenly lashing out at me without telling me exactly why, now, will it?

I think announcing it in a public forum is pretty close to letting you know. The thing that I don't like about your (and TF and Erisco) posts is that they are all the same. 80% of the time it's telling people why they should use linux coz it's way cooler and 'bill gates is an idiot' and that they have missed a full stop and their question is wrong. The rest of the time it's just a lump of code. That's not too bad for an 'ask a question, get an answer then leave' place. But it's boooooring. Nothing fun every happens here. That's why I am enjoying this discussion so much. It's getting some interesting reactions and bringing up some valid points.

Is it not lack of respect to bottle up feelings and then suddenly telling us all that three specific people have destroyed your this lovely port of discussions rather than simply telling us either via PM or by a thread?

I'm not bottling up anything. If I don't like something, I say it, and that's what I have done here. By telling you by PM I'd generate an uncensored argument. In a thread it becomes a public discussion which is more my way of solving things.

Frequently people assume you are being rude or trying to be obtuse when your posts could equally be interpreted as being polite and agreeing

Sometimes, a little rudeness can help. If I were to say "Erm, I think Nox and Ferret and Erisco have made this place a little boring, and their posts are really good but sometimes avoid the question" that would never work. They'd just skim over it as a minor issue and it would be forgotten after a few posts. By bringing it straight out as I see it, it causes reactions like nox's which lead us to discussion and a good solution.



I don't sugarcoat any of my reviews, but I do try to keep them encouraging, rather than discouraging.

By putting someone down you can encourage them. If someone told me a was a crappy coder I wouldn't go "Oh well, he must be right. Better give up then". I would prove him wrong by trying harder.

Do not get me wrong, you are a nice guy.
-Gal

[ngaisteve1]

For me, what I learnt is to give contructive feedback, by telling that person what to be improved, rather than just how you feel.

You can add jokes / sarcastic remark / insult / teasing to someone who your friend. This is normally a gesture from a friend / buddy. But still good to keep it minimal as I learnt that that will affect one's self-esteem even to your friend.

[Horus_Kol]

This is the thread that sparked it for me. http://www.htmlforums.com/website-review/t-new-witchery-88446.html
This guy is crazy if he thinks that site looks good. Do you not agree?

I'm sorry, but if you think that a two word opinion about someone's site is a contributive review, then I'm not surprised people get upset at you...

Yes, people put up some really awful site designs for review, and they do need to be told... but instead of looking down from on high and smiting the offender to design, how about making some suggestions?
Here's an example of a review that I made that was appreciated by the reviewee (and the reviewee seems to have taken action on):
http://www.htmlforums.com/website-review/t-could-you-please-review-75655.html

My general rule is - what would I like to hear and how would I like it put to me, if I were to ask for a review?
The truth - yup...
Suggestions - definitely...

"Very dark" - not really helpful.

[Vege]

Iw not been here for long, but sure i can say too that the mood of htmlforums have changed. But mainly because iw changed too.

Writing words is around 50% colder than saying something in the face even thou the words would be the same.

The thing that I don't like about your (and TF and Erisco) posts is that they are all the same. 80% of the time it's telling people why they should use linux coz it's way cooler and 'bill gates is an idiot'
When using linux, many important features for PHP -semicoder comes much more easy to maintain and develop (ssh, cronjobs, free software, server knowledge) if u can't get over this one, then I'm sorry for u.

and that they have missed a full stop and their question is wrong. The rest of the time it's just a lump of code. That's not too bad for an 'ask a question, get an answer then leave' place. But it's boooooring.

First time you come here for an answer, if you don't get your answer, you go somewhere else. Do i have to continue?
I myself rerely check any of the subforums that is not question/answer based.

This guy is crazy if he thinks that site looks good. Do you not agree?
Even with the new color scheme the site is still going to look like crap. You are using tables and you obviously do not know how to use them.
My first page was made when i was on 7th grade, it had blood, bricks and gif animations and i really thought it rocked the world (well id did ;)). Point is, in reviews you just say to people that "u suck, quit", which is not really nice.

[Horus_Kol]

I think announcing it in a public forum is pretty close to letting you know. The thing that I don't like about your (and TF and Erisco) posts is that they are all the same. 80% of the time it's telling people why they should use linux coz it's way cooler and 'bill gates is an idiot' and that they have missed a full stop and their question is wrong. The rest of the time it's just a lump of code. That's not too bad for an 'ask a question, get an answer then leave' place. But it's boooooring. Nothing fun every happens here. That's why I am enjoying this discussion so much. It's getting some interesting reactions and bringing up some valid points.
Time and place, Mico - there are times when "fun" are appropriate, and times when a poster just wants an answer...


I'm not bottling up anything. If I don't like something, I say it, and that's what I have done here. By telling you by PM I'd generate an uncensored argument. In a thread it becomes a public discussion which is more my way of solving things.
And yet you complain that people are publicly bashing you when they return your argument...

Sometimes, a little rudeness can help. If I were to say "Erm, I think Nox and Ferret and Erisco have made this place a little boring, and their posts are really good but sometimes avoid the question" that would never work. They'd just skim over it as a minor issue and it would be forgotten after a few posts. By bringing it straight out as I see it, it causes reactions like nox's which lead us to discussion and a good solution.
No, it just gets people's dander up and then you complain that people don't like you...
Is it really your place to be pointing out people's shortcomings in public?
If you have a problem with a member like that, enter into a private discussion with them... again, I point out that you don't like being told certain things in public, so why is it any different when you do it to other people?

By putting someone down you can encourage them. If someone told me a was a crappy coder I wouldn't go "Oh well, he must be right. Better give up then". I would prove him wrong by trying harder.
Using phrases like "crappy coder" and "your design sucks" is not a recognised method of people management - I hope that you will never find yourself in a management position with an attitude like that...

Yes, point out that a person is wrong, point out that they might not be an expert, but give them an suggestion of a better direction...
People don't come here to be told that you think you are better than them - they come to get help, advice, and suggestions...
Y'know who's probably the best member here - its Scoutt... and I can't remember any time he might have called a member a "crappy coder", even if that is what everyone is thinking...

[Thirsty Ferret]

Is someone here out to get me?
I left because every time I expressed an opinion I got shot down by a few posters, who make themselves out to be completely objective angels. They never say anything against anyone, their opinions are so filtered that they pretty much never have anything to say. And when they do speak it's obvious they are trying their hardest to sound intelligent and not actually bring up any issues. They are boring and their sniping makes everyone else filter what they say. Thanks Nox, Erisco, and Ferret.

This place is a boring ****-hole now.
There we go again. I was only trying to make a point and express the reason I left. But I can't do that, I cannot utter a bad word about any other person. It was not derision, it was the truth of why I rarely visit this place. And I do not have to resort to profanity, I just choose to. It's the way I speak, and I will not censor it just so you can live in your perfect virtual world where everyone sings songs and lives in harmony. By posting that first sentence peg you have confirmed the exact point of my post.
The thing that I don't like about your (and TF and Erisco) posts is that they are all the same. 80% of the time it's telling people why they should use linux coz it's way cooler and 'bill gates is an idiot' and that they have missed a full stop and their question is wrong. The rest of the time it's just a lump of code.
It would appear so.

Anyway, moving on...

I believe that everyone has a right to express their opinion, be it positive or negative; so long as they do it in a polite manner. Shouting and swearing to get your opinion across will get you nowhere, because I just won't listen. If you are willing to sit and listen to what I think, and respond in an equally polite and constructive manner, then I am willing to sit and listen to you and offer you the same courtesy.

As a result, and my distaste for hipocracy, I always try and set out my opinion in a constructive, well-mannered way so that people will actually read it and be willing to accept some of my ideas.

In the case of Linux, I always try and set out how Linux has helped me in a constructive way, and (if necessary) offer ways in which Linux could help the person I'm talking to. As for Bill Gates, his businnes is incredibly successful and I have every respect for him because of that; it's just some of his company's business practices that disturb me.

Finally, I'd like to offer my apoligies if I've cheesed anyone off here. Firstly because I realise I don't apologise anywhere near enough and seek to change that, but also because if you thought what I said was nasty or brutal, it wasn't meant to come out that way. I'm a nice person, really.

[twodayslate]

By putting someone down you can encourage them. If someone told me a was a crappy coder I wouldn't go "Oh well, he must be right. Better give up then". I would prove him wrong by trying harder.
I am going to have to agree with you all the way.
Back in the day when I was into invisionfree, I made a skin. My friend said it sucked. So we had a compitition of who could make a better skin and I won.
When people do sugarcoat reviews, like said above, people look over them as minor issues.

edit:// Perhaps it is good that we have different review styles. It gives people too sides of the story, positive and negative. Just do not get all huffy puffy when we give negative reviews.
I have given people all positive reviews before but most of the stuff in the review forum is horrible (n00bs or advertisments). There are occasionally a nice ones.


Using phrases like "crappy coder" and "your design sucks" is not a recognised method of people management - I hope that you will never find yourself in a management position with an attitude like that...

Yes, point out that a person is wrong, point out that they might not be an expert, but give them an suggestion of a better direction...
People don't come here to be told that you think you are better than them - they come to get help, advice, and suggestions...
Y'know who's probably the best member here - its Scoutt... and I can't remember any time he might have called a member a "crappy coder", even if that is what everyone is thinking...If I was in a managment situation then yes, I would be very encouraging, but I am not. For some, you are, but for me this is more casual. If someone wants a review of their site, I am going to give it too them. There is nothing in the rules that says that the review has to be postitive or encouraging.
I do not think I have callled people crappy coders. I have just said that there design was not good.

[Horus_Kol]

being constructive is not sugarcoating...

and, its a little different if its a friend just saying "it sucked" rather than some random person at a website for HELP and ADVICE on design and development...

[nox-Hand]

Do not get me wrong, you are a nice guy.

Who said Pegasus was a guy? :rofl:


80% of the time it's telling people why they should use linux coz it's way cooler and 'bill gates is an idiot

First of all, I have actually said this OFTEN, I point out that people should use what they want to and I have never said Bill Gates was stupid. He brought computing to the end users, which he still does. Linux only started doing that a few years ago. :)


I'm not bottling up anything. If I don't like something, I say it, and that's what I have done here. By telling you by PM I'd generate an uncensored argument. In a thread it becomes a public discussion which is more my way of solving things.


Ah, but bringing it up as a reason for why you leave would not be nice without you BEFORE leaving told us about it? You have really poked the wrong penguin here, cause I don't like that. You should tell me what you like about me, and not just use it as a lame side remark. Don't like me, tell me why. Don't want to? Then take your "infinite knowledge" and dump it on some other forum.



When using linux, many important features for PHP -semicoder comes much more easy to maintain and develop (ssh, cronjobs, free software, server knowledge) if u can't get over this one, then I'm sorry for u.

I really don't want a Linux vs Windows attack again... I just want for people to use what they want.... :burnt:



If you have a problem with a member like that, enter into a private discussion with them... again, I point out that you don't like being told certain things in public, so why is it any different when you do it to other people?

Hell, now it's out in the open I want someone to start a "Why we hate nox, erisco and TF" thread so we can get it all in the open. Stop hiding your stupid feelings and then lashing out with them. Make them intelligent in the form of critisism.



[Quote=TF]Finally, I'd like to offer my apoligies if I've cheesed anyone off here. Firstly because I realise I don't apologise anywhere near enough and seek to change that, but also because if you thought what I said was nasty or brutal, it wasn't meant to come out that way. I'm a nice person, really.[/TF]

NO. Do not say you are sorry before actually having a proper complaint! I cannot see how micos lashing out at us can be complaining properly! Write a thread, a PM or something. I mean, I have never heard a complaint about my Linuxy ways etc, only that I write too much. Geez, I want to know how many others dislike me for various reasons!




Once again I have become annoyed and I am pressed for time. Will run off to catch a bus and see what happens with this unstable thread. Could explode at any time. The eye of the storm is over us.

[twodayslate]

being constructive is not sugarcoating...

and, its a little different if its a friend just saying "it sucked" rather than some random person at a website for HELP and ADVICE on design and development...

The point of the review forum is "Want to know how your overall presentation looks? ". I am letting them know how thier overall presentation is. I am not going to sit down and code the site for them, if I wanted to do that I would go to the HTML or CSS forum.

Who said Pegasus was a guy? :rofl:I knew that was going to happen! :lol:

I do not think that the members that I am reviewing find me rude. I have three positive (one green the rest grey) reputations from them. Only one person gave me negative and that was Romeo.


My first page was made when i was on 7th grade, it had blood, bricks and gif animations and i really thought it rocked the world (well id did ;)). Point is, in reviews you just say to people that "u suck, quit", which is not really nice.

How many years was that? The internet has changed and so has the standard.
He could have at least gotten rid of the table border. We told him that, he did not listen.
I'm sorry, but if you think that a two word opinion about someone's site is a contributive review, then I'm not surprised people get upset at you...

Yes, people put up some really awful site designs for review, and they do need to be told... but instead of looking down from on high and smiting the offender to design, how about making some suggestions?
Here's an example of a review that I made that was appreciated by the reviewee (and the reviewee seems to have taken action on):
http://www.htmlforums.com/website-review/t-could-you-please-review-75655.html

My general rule is - what would I like to hear and how would I like it put to me, if I were to ask for a review?
The truth - yup...
Suggestions - definitely...

"Very dark" - not really helpful.I only put Very Dark so the mods would not delete my post for saying he was evil...
If I made a bad design I would want someone to tell me to try again. If I do not like a site I start over from scratch.

[BonRouge]

I think I said this before somewhere, but I think the point of the forum is to help people. I think some people need to remember that not everyone is as thick-skinned as they may be themselves. If I go looking for help, I don't want people telling me I'm stupid. I'm looking for help because I don't know everything. I know that nobody does know everything but I hope that someone can help me out.

Primarily, these forums are about helping each other out. Of course, we also have the Lounge for general discussion, and that's very useful for this kind of thing, but the root of it all is the communal information gathering and sharing. When someone has a page that has problems, point out what could be done to improve the code/design rather than just putting it down. Just putting it down doesn't help anybody.

[micomator]

When using linux, many important features for PHP -semicoder comes much more easy to maintain and develop (ssh, cronjobs, free software, server knowledge) if u can't get over this one, then I'm sorry for u.

There we go again. My comment was about repeatedly saying stuff when it's not asked for. Like when people ask simple questions like table alignment, and get rants about swapping OS'.

First time you come here for an answer, if you don't get your answer, you go somewhere else. Do i have to continue?
I myself rerely check any of the subforums that is not question/answer based.


My point was that this place IMO would be much better if it wasn;t just a questions and answers place. If the posters showed some personalty and this place become more of a community.

My first page was made when i was on 7th grade, it had blood, bricks and gif animations and i really thought it rocked the world (well id did ). Point is, in reviews you just say to people that "u suck, quit", which is not really nice.

You are putting words in peoples mouths. Nobody ever told anyone to quit. BY giving people harsh reviews you can encourage them to prove you wrong.

"Time and place, Mico - there are times when "fun" are appropriate, and times when a poster just wants an answer..."

Can't we answer questions while keeping this place fun at the same time?

And yet you complain that people are publicly bashing you when they return your argument...
I do?

No, it just gets people's dander up and then you complain that people don't like you...

I don't remember complaining that people don't like me.

If you have a problem with a member like that, enter into a private discussion with them... again, I point out that you don't like being told certain things in public, so why is it any different when you do it to other people?

Private discussions turn into personal battles. I'd prefer a public discussion but it's up to you. I don't mind being told anything in public. I don't remember saying otherwise. Say what you like, but we all maintain the right to defend ourselves.

Using phrases like "crappy coder" and "your design sucks" is not a recognised method of people management - I hope that you will never find yourself in a management position with an attitude like that...

Who's to say that I'm not already in a management position? Oh right, I'm just a kiddie. I'd rather call a crappy coder a crappy coder, rather than tell them they're codings fine. By telling them they are a crappy coder, they can recognise that they need to improve and can seek help by me (which I would give ungrudgingly) or anyone else.


Shouting and swearing to get your opinion across will get you nowhere, because I just won't listen.

Shouting is unacceptable in most cases and I do not do that. Mild swearing is part of my vocabulary and is how I speak.

If you are willing to sit and listen to what I think, and respond in an equally polite and constructive manner, then I am willing to sit and listen to you and offer you the same courtesy.

I'm all ears, I am listening, interpreting and commenting.

Finally, I'd like to offer my apologies if I've cheesed anyone off here.

No need to apologise, you have done nothing wrong.


Ah, but bringing it up as a reason for why you leave would not be nice without you BEFORE leaving told us about it? You have really poked the wrong penguin here, cause I don't like that. You should tell me what you like about me, and not just use it as a lame side remark. Don't like me, tell me why. Don't want to? Then take your "infinite knowledge" and dump it on some other forum.

I never said I don't like you, and If I gave that impression you have misinterptetted me. This is why I brought your name up, and this is why I dislike reading your posts:

You are too polite it almosts puts me to sleep. I know manners are a virtue when discussing topics, but I don't like when people censor what they say. If you think something, say it. If it will anger someone pointlessly, feel free to censor. But if by negatively criticizing someone could in some way help them improve or change, spit it out.

Tell me why you disagree with me, and tell me why you dislike me. Please don't censor yourself. Whatever you say, if you have reason to it I will not be angry with you.

I didn't want to accuse people. I had the problem with you guys so I left rather than bring it up and make you fix yourselves. You have done nothing wrong, so don't apologise. The only reason I ended up telling why I left because it was asked. By stating my reason in an abrupt and straight up manner, I have sparked interest and conflict which has in turn cause you (Nox), TF and Erisco to offer to try and change.

[Pegasus]

Sparked interest and conflict? I don't know about the first but the second is certainly what you've done. Why does this place need to have conflict in order to be interesting? That's one of the prime reasons we've lasted so long - there is no major conflict. We're here to help get the job done, not start flame wars. There's no need to be a tactless git, just because you know how.

If you think politeness is boring, see how many doors being rude opens for you in the Real World.

I'm going to go have another coffee and try to keep my temper in check.

Peg

[nox-Hand]

Like when people ask simple questions like table alignment, and get rants about swapping OS'.

Have you got any basis whatsoever to say that? I am quite certain I have never changed such a topic.



Can't we answer questions while keeping this place fun at the same time?
Ever heard of Word Games or SPAM Box? Sure, humor here and there but on some topics we could keep it clean. This subforum is also a place at which we can have loads of fun, but I don't see a hint of any fun from your side in this thread... you have only annoyed me so far :)



Mild swearing is part of my vocabulary and is how I speak.


Sure, just keep it within the ToS here ;) I swear slightly more in real life than here ;)


No need to apologise, you have done nothing wrong.
Funny, I got the impression that's what you were saying us three were guilty of - wrongdoings.


I never said I don't like you, and If I gave that impression you have misinterptetted me. This is why I brought your name up, and this is why I dislike reading your posts:

You are too polite it almosts puts me to sleep. I know manners are a virtue when discussing topics, but I don't like when people censor what they say. If you think something, say it. If it will anger someone pointlessly, feel free to censor. But if by negatively criticizing someone could in some way help them improve or change, spit it out.

Tell me why you disagree with me, and tell me why you dislike me. Please don't censor yourself. Whatever you say, if you have reason to it I will not be angry with you.

I didn't want to accuse people. I had the problem with you guys so I left rather than bring it up and make you fix yourselves. You have done nothing wrong, so don't apologise. The only reason I ended up telling why I left because it was asked. By stating my reason in an abrupt and straight up manner, I have sparked interest and conflict which has in turn cause you (Nox), TF and Erisco to offer to try and change.

Too... polite? :confused:

Erm, I would actually take that as a compliment :rofl:

Trust me when I say I can go mean sometimes, and I have even had Peg on my back once in a while, but I keep it *within* the limits as much as possible. Most of the time, yes, sure, I am polite but how that can annoy you I know not. If we are talking about how I have not gone and been against anyone much lately that has simply been due to lack of time for engaging in heated discussions and lack of great topics. I have been writing impolitely, and I have even told Peg that she was WAY wrong in such a way that I thought I'd be banned for it. Give me a topic that ruffles my electronic feathers and I will pluck yours :D



So, you want me to change? Erm, so, what, start swearing a little more, annoying all the people that actually like polite folks etc? Tell me how to change and I shall have a meeting with me, myself and my better half and see what I can figure out between me ;)

[Vege]

How many years was that? The internet has changed and so has the standard.
He could have at least gotten rid of the table border. We told him that, he did not listen.

The learning curve of people is still the same and usually the first page of everyone still looks about the same.
If they ignore your opinions, it's mainly because they don't understand the reasoning why something needs to be fixed if it looks ok to em.

/me takes 3dglasses:cool: and popcorn8175 and wonders why people likes to "argue" about petty things.

[nox-Hand]

If we don't argue of petty things, the non-petty things would be argued upon more, thus making a certain group of non-petty things pettty. Those petty things would be blacklisted from arguments and we would be in an endless cycle of non-arguments :(


/me likes petty.. ;)

[Horus_Kol]

And yet you complain that people are publicly bashing you when they return your argument...
I do?

No, it just gets people's dander up and then you complain that people don't like you...
I don't remember complaining that people don't like me.
yes - you did that almost as soon as this thread started...


Time and place, Mico - there are times when "fun" are appropriate, and times when a poster just wants an answer...
Can't we answer questions while keeping this place fun at the same time?
not entirely sure where insulting someone becomes fun...
And weren't you just complaining that threads digress from one subject to another?


When using linux, many important features for PHP -semicoder comes much more easy to maintain and develop (ssh, cronjobs, free software, server knowledge) if u can't get over this one, then I'm sorry for u.
There we go again. My comment was about repeatedly saying stuff when it's not asked for. Like when people ask simple questions like table alignment, and get rants about swapping OS'.
When did this every happen? At worst, I know there's a bunch of advocates for CSS over tables - and for the reason that this is best practice... but never a table to OS digression... any examples?


Shouting and swearing to get your opinion across will get you nowhere, because I just won't listen.
Shouting is unacceptable in most cases and I do not do that. Mild swearing is part of my vocabulary and is how I speak.


If you are willing to sit and listen to what I think, and respond in an equally polite and constructive manner, then I am willing to sit and listen to you and offer you the same courtesy.
I'm all ears, I am listening, interpreting and commenting.
So, you're open to other people's opinion, but are then not going to adapt your behaviour to fit the rules of conduct that you (and everyone else) agreed to on joining the Forums?

FYI - I'm an ex-Army type, and when I'm in the privacy of my home (no kids) or down the pub with certain friends, I will swear blue... but here, on these forums where there a lot of younger members, and other people who don't greatly appreciate cursing and blinding, or elsewhere in similar circumstances, I curtail my more colourful vocabulary - because that is what civilised people do.

Also - you expect other people to change their behaviour because of your comments about them, but don't expect to have to return the favour? I'm sorry, but that is hypocrisy, plain and simple...


Using phrases like "crappy coder" and "your design sucks" is not a recognised method of people management - I hope that you will never find yourself in a management position with an attitude like that...
Who's to say that I'm not already in a management position? Oh right, I'm just a kiddie. I'd rather call a crappy coder a crappy coder, rather than tell them they're codings fine. By telling them they are a crappy coder, they can recognise that they need to improve and can seek help by me (which I would give ungrudgingly) or anyone else.
No, you are not "just a kiddie" - but you aren't in a management position, are you?
If you go around telling people they are "crappy coders" then they will just resent you - you may say that you don't care what people think of you, but when you are working with people, nobody gets very far without being nice to those people...

I only put Very Dark so the mods would not delete my post for saying he was evil...
If I made a bad design I would want someone to tell me to try again. If I do not like a site I start over from scratch.
Alll I'm saying to the pair of you is that, instead of just pointing out peoples errors and inexperience - say something that will help them take the right direction...
It isn't about doing their code for them, or their design... it's about saying, "have you thought about this colour instead?" or "instead of tables, you should try using CSS and <div>s because that is the correct way - have a look at <insert reference site> for more information".

short, non-expansive remarks may massage your ego and give you an enhanced opinion of your own skills, but it doesn't help people, and that is what they have come here for...

[twodayslate]

It seems to me that everyone is repeating the things they are saying... :sleepy:
Alll I'm saying to the pair of you is that, instead of just pointing out peoples errors and inexperience - say something that will help them take the right direction...
It isn't about doing their code for them, or their design... it's about saying, "have you thought about this colour instead?" or "instead of tables, you should try using CSS and <div>s because that is the correct way - have a look at <insert reference site> for more information".I try to do that in the CSS and HTML forum. In the review forum their site should be done or near completion. I am just reviewing it.

[Horus_Kol]

so, your first site design was near to perfect?

I think you need to "review" what you think a review is... it isn't just saying what you think is wrong with a design, it's saying what you think would make it better...

[twodayslate]

so, your first site design was near to perfect?

I think you need to "review" what you think a review is... it isn't just saying what you think is wrong with a design, it's saying what you think would make it better...

My first design was not perfect. I never said it was and I did not post it in a forum and say "Hey guys, dis is DA ****! Check it oUt!". I made it, shared it with some friends and then made another. I have made a couple layouts in the last month, how many have you seen? Perhaps one and the rest from the CSS forum.

When you say something is wrong you are hinting how to make it better. If something is wrong you should fix it, which make it better. :rolleyes:

[Pegasus]

Saying something is wrong is telling someone that something has to change, but it doesn't say *how* to change it to make it better. That's the point that we're trying to make. Suggesting options is a more helpful solution than just saying a page or site needs work.

Saying a site/page doesn't look good and leaving it at that is like taking your car into a garage for repairs and the guy tells you that something's wrong with the car and that it needs to be fixed. Well, you knew that already, didn't you? That's why you brought it in in the first place. When he offers suggestions and/or possible solutions, based on his/her experience and training, he's giving you options.

When people come here to get reviews on their site, they're "bringing their car to the garage". We're the mechanics who are there to help solve the problems.

Sure, we're going to get our share of people who don't like what they hear, but that's human nature. Not everyone's like that. Does it really kill us to be polite and encouraging rather than negative and discouraging in our reviews?

Peg

[ascskate]

ahh this thread is so confusing.:eek: I give up on trying to figuere out what is going on. :P

[twodayslate]

Saying something is wrong is telling someone that something has to change, but it doesn't say *how* to change it to make it better. That's the point that we're trying to make. Suggesting options is a more helpful solution than just saying a page or site needs work.

Saying a site/page doesn't look good and leaving it at that is like taking your car into a garage for repairs and the guy tells you that something's wrong with the car and that it needs to be fixed. Well, you knew that already, didn't you? That's why you brought it in in the first place. When he offers suggestions and/or possible solutions, based on his/her experience and training, he's giving you options.

When people come here to get reviews on their site, they're "bringing their car to the garage". We're the mechanics who are there to help solve the problems.

Sure, we're going to get our share of people who don't like what they hear, but that's human nature. Not everyone's like that. Does it really kill us to be polite and encouraging rather than negative and discouraging in our reviews?

PegI do not think that analogy fits with this situation. They do not know anything is wrong with their site, that is why they are asking us if we like it.
If I say I do not like the logo then they will make a new logo.

I do not just say "Your site sucks". I might say "You site is not good, the logo is bleh".

[Juparis]

I thought it quite interesting how the subject of this thread was "Where have all the poster gones?" with the initial intention of finding answer, and yet the body is nothing but tit-and-tat between members. I read as much as I could stay awake through, so hopefully a few will do me the favor of reading this post in its entirety as well.

The first post--by Horus Kol, has already offended me. Taking a jab at feonten knowing he is not allowed to respond is a pretty low punch. I give feonten my upmost respect, and firmly retain my belief that he was unjustly banned. I don't even remember the exact wording, having gone through so many posts, but it's the tiny little jabs like that which I would like to emphasize...

I don't even remember when I first joined these forums--I'd have checked on of my previous posts before writing this, but whadda-ya know! I'm rarely ever hear anymore! I think it was sometime in 2004 that I first joined, and for what reason, I may never remember. Regardless, I know my althalus became my first friend on the forums, and he remains a very warm welcomer to these forums; a prime example, in my opinion, of how we should all conduct outselves. So how have the forums changed? Well, a lot has happened, that's for sure--we've all had our personal conflicts and misinterpretations, but overall, there has always been one small group to stay active while other come and go. I think that now we are simply seeing this small active group become more and more refined, for several reasons which I'll touch on in a bit. To answer my own question, these forums have become more and more idle, which is the topic of this whole thread, I know. Ok, now some theories on the causes:

1. Is it getting colder in here, or is that just you?
Everyone, it seems, has been reverting to bolder and more rash statements, taking more offence to each facet of individual scrutiny, regardless of the intent held behind it. And I don't mean to use big words here, but is everyone really out to get you? I doubt it. I think we can all take a moment to just chillax before making so many assumptions about any one person's post. Anyway, my basic point is this: I've notice a tendancy, by some, to use words some might find inappropriate, or a tone which we'd all see as conniving. These are still Family-forums. I think we can all maintain a decent tone, even if we're not exactly complimenting eachother.
--And here too, I'm not saying we all must sugarcoat each word as we post it. No, I do not think formalism would improve anything. It's OK to be frank with someone, but I think we can think about the words we choose before we decide to simply go for their throats..

2. (Appropriate sub-point of 1.) Pardonnez-moi, counselor, but allow me to suggest removing thine nose from the clouds per alleviating thine nosebleed.
So you might not get what I meant; that's OK. One other tone I've been sensing as quite the fad is that of self-righteousness. Sticking your nose up so high that it touches that clouds doesn't necessarily put you in any higher position that the person you're rebuting. This may be personal opinion, but saying persona non grata is no different than saying you're not welcome here. I do not find attempts to appear more civilized, more innocent (as if that were posssible), or in any way better that anyone else to be in the least bit amusing. Nox, I admit, this applies to you, and TF as well. Sorry if you find that offensive, but it's only adding to the coldfront we're getting here at the forums. (This may be just personal opinion, however) To me, we're all equals. Thankfully majority of the mods already act that way--why can't the rest of us? It's all about respect for eachother, not for ourselves.

3. Who expects intellectual discussion and family-type relations from HTMLForums?
This whole place is advertised as HTMLForums--the one hip place to find all your HTML answers! People searching for anything more than that might never find the forums because we're not listed until the umpteenth page on Google's results for "intellectual discussion." So for those that do join, what's their motive? They want an answer. NOW. You can't really expect much more from those that join simply because of why they all joined. We're lucky enough to have the active few that we do who realize how much more these forums have to offer!

4. Our 15 minutes of fame might just be up.
Another personal theory to the lack of activity is that web design has simply lost its pizazz to the masses. There are already plenty of well-designers which many of us will never compare to. It's no longer "hip" to be making your own website, and even if it is, the trend has shifted from HTML to almost pure FLASH, which many (including myself) are not up to learning right now, given my schedule.

Those are just my theories, and while I'm sure some of you may take offense to one or more of my points, I hope you can acknowledge that they are my opinion, and will likely not cause an apocalypse or have any effect on the world or these forums whatsoever. I can respect anyone who respects me. Even those that don't, I'll try and deal with calmly--that's my goal, for the future, anyway. Because I do value these forums and the many members here. The last thing I want to do is harm the forums or a member. I know I've done my fair share of damage in the past, but if we can all reconcile, I'm sure we can finally bring this virtual world of tit-and-tat to an end. Lastly (because my fingers and eyes are tired), some reasons I became inactive:
-Lack of discussion. There was nothing interesting keeping me here, so I checked the Lounge less and less often until *poof*, I stopped checking altogether. I see now, however, that we can still have a fruitful discussion from time to time. :)
-Personal schedule. My life has been extremely hectic lately. I've had to find a college, work my butt off (because unlike my more "financially fortunate" peers, I have to pay for gas, car insurance, clothes, etc.), and try to organize everything I'm going to do after high school as well. Mainly, work has kept me from doing much at all, including homework. So if I'm not at work, I'm at home, desperately trying to catch up in studies.
-Feonten. Ok, it may sound ridiculous that I'd become inactive because of one member, but I'd like to think that I have a bond with feonten, as I do with several other members her. I was always able to enjoy feonten's humor, and though his posts were both poetic and insightful. When he was banned, it kind of clicked in (which someone else might have related to earlier): Freedom of speech is reserved for the dead. Unfortunately for him, his humor was not appreciated, and for a while, nor was my presence. I'm not holding a grudge or proclaiming any sort of vendetta--but the people that make the most interesting dicussions ("controversial" or not), always seem to leave or become banned, which discourages me from doing much either. Feonten was simply the best example for me to cite.
--No real content. This is a subpoint of my previous point--some of the threads I visit and may find interesting have turned into those single- or double-worded posts you'd find in a Instant Messanger conversation. I'm all for following a discussion topic, but I feel awkward referring to the initial subject when the participating posters are off on something entirely different (though usually it's nothing of any importance). These instances might not be occurring any more, I'm not sure, but that's what was reigning when I resigned my daily activity of checking the forums.

That's all I have to offer. For those that managed to keep their eyes open, I appreciate you taking the time to read this whole thing, and I especially appreciate and respect anyone able to respond to this respectfully. You don't have to censor yourself with me, but I think Horus had a point when he mentioned how we should respect eachtoher more...

[twodayslate]

Another personal theory to the lack of activity is that web design has simply lost its pizazz to the masses. There are already plenty of well-designers which many of us will never compare to. It's no longer "hip" to be making your own website, and even if it is, the trend has shifted from HTML to almost pure FLASH, which many (including myself) are not up to learning right now, given my schedule.I will never make a site that is all flash. It is not user friendly. That is why web design is not dead, sure a flash site might look better but you can have more content with a normal site let alone it loads faster.
With more and more advances in code you can create effects that you might see on a flash site.

[nox-Hand]

@ Jupie,


Once again you baffle me with your incredible talent at writing in such a rich and captivating manner! I am amazed that you can write that way, and I think it's an enchanting gift you should hold on to! I find your points worthy and just, and I cannot disagree with you on any major points. I was surprised to see feonten kicked from this place, for he was quite an interesting person. I admit, I loathed noticing him post another message as it meant for me to have to read his odd poetic ways :rofl:
Anyway, he was a good member although a somewhat.. rough around the edges here and there, he did not exactly deserve a kick.. ah well, that's history..

Anyway, I read your entire message, and cannot find many things to comment for you have covered most bases :)


So you might not get what I meant; that's OK.

Yeah, and that... I didn't get your message completely about "thine nosebleed", but I gather you feel that I (and others) can feel a wee bit too... large at times? Please do clarify for I didn't really get it :lol:


Anyway, gotta get back to moped driving! Final test now :)


ooh, all yellow smilies :lol:

[erisco]

*plugs ears*

This isn't a good thread to keep open.

[nox-Hand]

*plugs ears*

This isn't a good thread to keep open.

Which is exactly why it should be kept open.

[twodayslate]

Which is exactly why it should be kept open.
agreed :)
I find this quite interesting.

[Horus_Kol]

The first post--by Horus Kol, has already offended me. Taking a jab at feonten knowing he is not allowed to respond is a pretty low punch. I give feonten my upmost respect, and firmly retain my belief that he was unjustly banned. I don't even remember the exact wording, having gone through so many posts, but it's the tiny little jabs like that which I would like to emphasize...

-Feonten. Ok, it may sound ridiculous that I'd become inactive because of one member, but I'd like to think that I have a bond with feonten, as I do with several other members her. I was always able to enjoy feonten's humor, and though his posts were both poetic and insightful. When he was banned, it kind of clicked in (which someone else might have related to earlier): Freedom of speech is reserved for the dead. Unfortunately for him, his humor was not appreciated, and for a while, nor was my presence. I'm not holding a grudge or proclaiming any sort of vendetta--but the people that make the most interesting dicussions ("controversial" or not), always seem to leave or become banned, which discourages me from doing much either. Feonten was simply the best example for me to cite.

I'm sorry if I offended you at all, Juparis, but Feonten was, for me, a perfect example of an anti-social poster...
I actually got his sense of humour - and I did enjoy it at times...
Unfortunately, Feonten seemed to thrive on upsetting people... he was warned on several occastions about his behaviour (at which point he would cry foul and claim that the moderators were ganging up on him - something that Jason would never allow), until it was decided that his presence here was far too disruptive...
I'm sorry if you didn't think that his behaviour all that bad - but there were sufficient instances and complaints to give cause to this action... for obvious reasons, moderators can't state exactly why a member is banned, because such complaints and discussions about behaviour are confidential to the moderators...

As for free speech - I'm all for it... but I'm also for being polite, considerate, and tolerant (and so are the rules here at the forum)... things that Feonten was not (in violation of the rules he agreed to when he registered).

With regards to why people aren't staying...
You give reasons why people wouldn't join - sure, people come here to post questions about their website or code or problem... that's certainly why I came along... but, ultimately, some people stay because of the community feeling we've built over the years... something that isn't really apparent in many other forums out there... (anyone ever been to radiomute - just try and say you like a band there, and you'll get 20 people flaming you because they think it sucks - here you'll just get people saying, "oh, you like them... I prefere...")
I just think that certain users' behaviours (including one or two moderators who are no longer here at the Forum) over the past year has caused a disruption in the feeling of community here.

[Juparis]

Wow, I was not expecting such kind-hearted responses! Maybe I should post in the middle of the night more often--I think I might make a bit more sense that way. :P
Anyway, I don't want to seem like a peace-keeper from the UN here, but I'm glad I made a bit of sense to you guys. Sorry I'm not into quoting; takes me a while to get everything organized, so I'll just direct my responses at each person..

@twodayslate: I would agree that web design is certainly not dead! And also that Flash sites are not user-friendly! Unfortunately, though, I've been noticing more and more sites use flash for the extra spark to set their page apart. And then there are those sites that are nothing but Flash! Those really upset me, because I have to wait for everything to load, just because I don't want to pay for a 60GB/sec connection. :P Anyway, I think to some degree, people see the Flash alternative as being more professional.. Hmm, I just thought of something else:

Perhaps fewer people are staying active here because they only need those single-solutions for their site. And that's likely the cause of WYSIWYG editors, being provided by nearly every host these days. When the editor makes a flaw, they look for an answer. After that, they're quite content and see no reason to return. I admit, those type of editors are getting more and more advanced, but I still prefer to code things myself... Just another thought..

@nox-Hand: Thanks for the compliments! But please, think of me as your friend/peer, not as some sort of great philosophical writer (as fun as that would be). :P
As for the nosebleeds? There was a quote I read or made somewhere way back when, which was something like, "Take your noses out of the clouds and fight us like men." The expression of a nose in the cloud is an exaggeration of sticking one's nose up to something. And that itself is figure of speech for being stuck up, arrogant, prissy, or whatever your adjective of choice. ;)
I couldn't find that quote anywhere, so I hope nobody minds if I claim to be its origin :D If you find a different source, please tell me so I can appropriately adjust my "Quotes" section on the various socializing sites I joined. ;)

@erisco: Well then I'm sorry for my little soap-box demonstration there. I think we're all hitting some valid points, however. Sure we could continue this via insulting PMs, but I think we all are starting to understand eachother's viewpoints by now (unless my interpretation of the last 50 posts was wrong). If you still don't approve, I wouldn't mind hearing your viewpoints and opinions in a PM (just to understand everyone a bit more, since I'm not on here often).

@Horus_Kol: I appreciate your apology, and of course forgive you. I understand how feonten's posts could be construed so many ways. I would have to disagree in what I saw of feonten's posts, but I'm sure the moderators took consideration before taking any sudden actions out of spite. It's nice to hear that you're not a cold stone of brick too. It's a shame that he couldn't comment to explain himself a little more, because I think his humor could be described as a punch on the shoulder rather than something to cause a giggle of glee (which, to others, could be vastly misinterpreted).
Per you views on speech, I can agree. It's important to realize the age spectrum that we have on these forums, but I know we can all get a little carried away in the mindset that everyone should act/talk the way we do. But there's more than one way to get from point A to B. As long as we all remember who's watching ([u]family[/i] forums), I think we should be fine. :)

I also agree with your feelings about these forums, Horus. Maybe I didn't touch on it enough, but people aren't joining because of the bonds they can form--I'd wager that +90% of the members here joined because of a problem with their website. Sure, we have plenty of other topics and sub-forums, but what's going to show up on Google when they're looking for that sorta thing? We don't necessarily have to advertise any differently, but I wish there was a way of keeping some members longer, just so they can see the potential of these forums and their own presence here.


I hope I summed everything up well enough; any comments can be responded. Any criticism can go in a post as well. I'm sure the mods would appreciate it if you bashed me in private, though. :P

"A sense of humor can help you overlook the unattractive, tolerate the unpleasant, cope with the unexpected, and smile through the unbearable"
-Moshe Waldoks

[erisco]

My opinion is this is quite a flame war and I do not believe these ever end well. In the past they haven't.

[scoutt]

When using linux, many important features for PHP -semicoder comes much more easy to maintain and develop (ssh, cronjobs, free software, server knowledge) if u can't get over this one, then I'm sorry for u.
that is such crap. windows php version has come a long way. you can do almost if not the exact same stuff on either OS. don't say linux is better than windows cause you get to use more php functions is hogwash.

ok, I just had to point that out. ;)

so, you know, I was going to sit down, write a very lengthy post and be done with it. but as I sat here and thought things over I asked myself why? why waste my time to say the same thing as a few members have already said. Then it came to me. you know what is wrong with this place? i will tell you and this is not pointed at any particular person.

You guys take things waaaaayyyyy to seriously. oh my god, he said he hated my site, how will I ever go on, i know I will retaliate and call him names. or what about, oh no, they don't like me, I will make there life miserable from here on out.

Jeez, guys/gals, come on. It is a FORUM for god sakes. as much as it pains me to say it, if you don't like it here, LEAVE. do not come back to make trouble for everybody else. for god sakes, this is text based posting, why take every word everybody types literally to the heart? dimeric hit the nail on the head.
Frequently people assume you are being rude or trying to be obtuse when your posts could equally be interpreted as being polite and agreeing.
well said bud.

Maybe I should set some ground rules. is that what you guys are after?

the next time somebody has a problem with another member and they cause problems, they will be banned. no warnings no nothing. I don't want to do that, so come on, can't we all just get along??? lol

You had to start someplace, you didn't know everything. would you expect answers like you give to be given to you when you first started? I bet not. sure, the same question will be asked over and over again. they don't know any better. they don't know what to search for if they don't know what it is called. i have answered many questions that were the same, so what, I am here to help.
sure it make me upset that they couldn't use the search engine or search the site. but hey, that is what this forum is for, asking and answering question.

And yes, you can and will answer them in the appropriate way. you can give them constructive advise without insulting them. it is very possible. be honest, sure, that is what they are here for, but be honest in a nice way. the newbie doesn't know any better. that is why they are here, is to learn

remember, the only stupid question is the one not asked.

There will be NO flame war, no flaming to anybody. for now on when somebody has a problem with another member, either tell a mod/admin or put them on ignore. STOP taking matters into your own hands, you are not a mod. that is what the mods are for, not only to police threads, but uphold the pleasurism (if that is even a word) family orientation of this place. if you have a problem with a mod/admin or me, then pm me, I will always look into it.

if you can't talk to your personal family that way then it shouldn't be said here.

does that clear a few things up here? sorry, longer than I expected. :)

[twodayslate]

the next time somebody has a problem with another member and they cause problems, they will be banned. no warnings no nothing. I don't want to do that, so come on, can't we all just get along??? lol
Please tell me you are not being serious.
remember, the only stupid question is the one not asked.I disagree. :lol: I have heard some pretty stupid questions in my life time.

There will be NO flame war, no flaming to anybody. for now on when somebody has a problem with another member, either tell a mod/admin or put them on ignore. STOP taking matters into your own hands, you are not a mod. that is what the mods are for, not only to police threads, but uphold the pleasurism (if that is even a word) family orientation of this place. if you have a problem with a mod/admin or me, then pm me, I will always look into it.Oh, just when it was about to get interesting. :rolleyes:

@twodayslate: I would agree that web design is certainly not dead! And also that Flash sites are not user-friendly! Unfortunately, though, I've been noticing more and more sites use flash for the extra spark to set their page apart. And then there are those sites that are nothing but Flash! Those really upset me, because I have to wait for everything to load, just because I don't want to pay for a 60GB/sec connection. :P Anyway, I think to some degree, people see the Flash alternative as being more professional.. Hmm, I just thought of something else:

Perhaps fewer people are staying active here because they only need those single-solutions for their site. And that's likely the cause of WYSIWYG editors, being provided by nearly every host these days. When the editor makes a flaw, they look for an answer. After that, they're quite content and see no reason to return. I admit, those type of editors are getting more and more advanced, but I still prefer to code things myself... Just another thought..
Most people come here for either A) advertising or B) One quick fix in the HTML, CSS, PHP etc forum

[erisco]

that is such crap. windows php version has come a long way. you can do almost if not the exact same stuff on either OS. don't say linux is better than windows cause you get to use more php functions is hogwash.
No argument there. A strong point about high level languages is that they are portable! However, Linux is natively better than Windows for other reasons that deal with the OS itself and not the software that runs on it ;)

[scoutt]

No argument there. A strong point about high level languages is that they are portable! However, Linux is natively better than Windows for other reasons that deal with the OS itself and not the software that runs on it ;)
don't go thinking linux is all superior, it has it's own faults. it is just not targeted as much as Windows.

Please tell me you are not being serious.
point in case: why do you take me serious?? did you not see my lol at the end??? ;) Do you want me to be serious? we have to stop this or it will not be a place were people can talk, get answers and have fun.

I disagree. :lol: I have heard some pretty stupid questions in my life time.
Then my boy, you have some growing up to do ;). Yes, you will here some stupid questions, but they are only stupid to you as you already knew the answer. The person asking the question didn't think it was stupid as they didn't know the answer. College professors will tell you the same thing. The only stupid question is the one "not" asked. I have heard that my whole life and it will always be true. I am sure you have asked some stupid questions that somebody else thought was stupid just because they knew the answer.

[twodayslate]

point in case: why do you take me serious?? did you not see my lol at the end??? ;) Do you want me to be serious? we have to stop this or it will not be a place were people can talk, get answers and have fun.I guess you did not see my sarcastic side too. ;)


Then my boy, you have some growing up to do ;). Yes, you will here some stupid questions, but they are only stupid to you as you already knew the answer. The person asking the question didn't think it was stupid as they didn't know the answer. College professors will tell you the same thing. The only stupid question is the one "not" asked. I have heard that my whole life and it will always be true. I am sure you have asked some stupid questions that somebody else thought was stupid just because they knew the answer.Sounds like you are not very opened minded, things can change. You proved yourself wrong. :lol:

[Pegasus]

Has he really? If you can't recognize that questions aren't stupid if you don't have an answer to them, then you've just proved Scoutt right. Change? We'll have to see it first, won't we?

Peg

[lost_panda]

I think I can sum up the problem with regards to etiquette on these forums:

There is a community ethos to which every member agrees when they sign up. Follow it, or find another forum. I don't think the rules say that you should post in a certain way, with the exception of those who are trying to be funny or reverse psychological.

I must say that even I try my level best to maintain a polite manner on these forums. The main reason for this is that I am what many Americans, a large body of this site, would refer to as a person who is "traditionally British", and often my tone, particularly in text, seems harsh and unaccommodating. (I started my post "sign-off" gimmick, incidentally, because I thought it would take the edge off of an otherwise blunt prose.)

As for the original question; those that participated in so-called "intelligent" talks have often since moved on to start, or continue, careers. What the site perhaps needs is a willingness to begin "intelligent topics" to which a younger audience can relate. There are many highly complex contemporary issues that youths can understand as well, often better, than their older counter-parts. Perhaps we should appeal to them.

the quietly intrigued,
panda

As an aside: twodayslate, I do not wish to be antagonistic or patronising, but I will wager that this will sound as such: your philosophy on the treatment of questions is juvenile. You cannot expect others to respond to offensive manners of speech in a positive way, as you do. You are not here to make other people become more accepting of criticism, you are here to contribute to a "pool" of internet developement knowledge.

[nox-Hand]

No argument there. A strong point about high level languages is that they are portable! However, Linux is natively better than Windows for other reasons that deal with the OS itself and not the software that runs on it ;)

I repeat; can we please skip the whole "which OS is better" thing? Geez, this place is big enough for a few OSs ;)

[coothead]

This thread with it's title...
Where have all the posters gone?
...brings to mind the old Pete Seeger song...
Where have all the flowers gone?
...and it's pertinent question...

When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?


But, of course, as an old 60's hippy my judgment, like my eyes, is probably clouded. :supereek:

[BonRouge]

Wise words, sir. Wise words indeed. ^^ :)

[erisco]

don't go thinking linux is all superior, it has it's own faults. it is just not targeted as much as Windows.
Getting root privileges for a hacker would be difficult. Either way, one of the points may be what you just said. OS wars are stupid. I'm just voicing my opinion between Windows and Linux... I have used both for years.

nox-Hand, come on ;)

[scoutt]

I guess you did not see my sarcastic side too. ;)
exactly my point, we can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not, that is why you guys shouldn't talk like that. you didn't leave any emoticon, as far as I know you were serious.

Sounds like you are not very opened minded, things can change. You proved yourself wrong. :lol:
always open minded, but it is not me asking the questions so therefore it will never change. so you think stupid question should go away? then everybody will know everything huh?

[twodayslate]

exactly my point, we can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not, that is why you guys shouldn't talk like that. you didn't leave any emoticon, as far as I know you were serious.


always open minded, but it is not me asking the questions so therefore it will never change. so you think stupid question should go away? then everybody will know everything huh?When did I say that stupid questions should disappear. I merely said that there was such a thing as stupid questions and that people should think about their question before they ask it.

These smilies help out some with the emotion side. ;)

[nox-Hand]

Getting root privileges for a hacker would be difficult. Either way, one of the points may be what you just said. OS wars are stupid. I'm just voicing my opinion between Windows and Linux... I have used both for years.

nox-Hand, come on ;)

No, make a dedicated "Linux VS. Windows BATTLE COMMENCE!" thread.

[twodayslate]

No, make a dedicated "Linux VS. Windows BATTLE COMMENCE!" thread.Why are you leaving apple out?

[erisco]

twodayslate, because Windows vs Linux is where all the real flaming happens ;)

[nox-Hand]

twodayslate, because noone mentioned Mac OS X yet. It should be included when that thread cometh. I want a Mac :(

[scoutt]

I merely said that there was such a thing as stupid questions and that people should think about their question before they ask it.

These smilies help out some with the emotion side. ;)

that is just it, people do not know they are stupid because they do not know the answer. They can think all they want, it will never be stupid to them until they find the answer.

[kemikalfire]

I am not sure where or why the posters have gone. I know I am not as active as I use to be because of school and life.

I try to pride myself on not being a my way or no way type of mod, but even I have had run ins with members in the past. I am also one of those type of people who can
be overly blunt. I appreciate bluntness and not going overboard with flowery sugar speech, but I also know there is a very specific difference between being blunt and being a useless jerk.

Saying (for example) a website is hard to read because gray text on a dark gray background is still blunt, but also helpful.

Only saying a "website sucks" with no backup or suggestions is stupid and not even worth the time you took to type it to the person needing/wanting help. You want to be that type of person, I say leave and don't bother coming back or you can hang around, continue being a jerk, and eventually you'll be banned. Either way, the same result is achieved, only that one of them makes you look like more of a jerk in the end.

telling someone "you're a crappy coder" is going to make them a better coder like me say "you're a crappy member" is going to make you be a better member.

kate!

[twodayslate]

that is just it, people do not know they are stupid because they do not know the answer. They can think all they want, it will never be stupid to them until they find the answer.Most people know there problem before there post. For example "How do you change the font color with CSS". All they had to do was google "font color CSS" and they would find it.
twodayslate, because Windows vs Linux is where all the real flaming happens ;)So true.

[Pegasus]

Google it? I never would have thought to use Google to find the answer to an HTML question when I was starting out. Or do any kind of site search. What would I look for amongst all the technical stuff?

Peg

[twodayslate]

Google it? I never would have thought to use Google to find the answer to an HTML question when I was starting out. Or do any kind of site search. What would I look for amongst all the technical stuff?

Peg
When you started off google was not as big. Now most people use google to answer there questions. ;)

http://www.tizag.com/cssT/font.php First page when you google Font Color CSS. Pretty straight forward and easy to follow.

[Pegasus]

So what you're saying is that beginners shouldn't post here, they should go to Google for their simple problems and only come here when they have real problems?

You know, you don't have to answer any question that you think is stupid. To be honest, I think I'd prefer that.

Peg

[twodayslate]

So what you're saying is that beginners shouldn't post here, they should go to Google for their simple problems and only come here when they have real problems?

You know, you don't have to answer any question that you think is stupid. To be honest, I think I'd prefer that.

PegYes, beginners should google there question first unless it is a specific design question. (EX: float not working with width and margins, or something like that. Not something general like how do you define a width of a div tag?) It would be faster to get there answer answered if they googled it.

[Pegasus]

That sort of defeats the purpose of HTMLforums, though, doesn't it? Even the most raw beginner knows that you don't send people offsite to find answers when you supposedly can supply them.

I repeat. If you think a question is stupid, don't answer it.

[twodayslate]

That sort of defeats the purpose of HTMLforums, though, doesn't it? Even the most raw beginner knows that you don't send people offsite to find answers when you supposedly can supply them.

I repeat. If you think a question is stupid, don't answer it.To get a question answered here you have to post and then wait for an answer (Usually takes one day). It is much faster to find the answer on google (about 30-40 seconds).
I never said that you should not post a question here. I said people should google there question before posting. It would save a lot of time, for the questioner and the answerer (I don't think those are words:lol: ).

[Pegasus]

Like I said, if you don't want to answer a question with something other than "Google it" then don't answer the question at all. I didn't think that was rocket science.

Peg

[twodayslate]

Like I said, if you don't want to answer a question with something other than "Google it" then don't answer the question at all. I didn't think that was rocket science.

Peg
I do not just write "google it". I do not get where you are coming from. :burnt:

[Pegasus]

If you think a question is stupid, don't answer it and move on to one more befitting your talents. That's all there is to it, you know. There are those of us who don't mind asking basic questions.

Peg

[kemikalfire]

When you started off google was not as big. Now most people use google to answer there questions. ;)

http://www.tizag.com/cssT/font.php First page when you google Font Color CSS. Pretty straight forward and easy to follow.

what's funny about this argument is that I initially found these forums (years ago) by googling a question I had. what a conundrum!!

kate!

[scoutt]

Yes, beginners should google there question first unless it is a specific design question. (EX: float not working with width and margins, or something like that. Not something general like how do you define a width of a div tag?) It would be faster to get there answer answered if they googled it.

that is so wrong. are you trying to run people off. That is the whole purpose of this forum, to ask or answer ANY question somebody has. Google is not the only choice a user has. We are a HTML forum, all html questions are allowed. if you don't like it then you can find someplace else to go. I think you are just dragging this on in spite of everybody. it stops here, now.

for now on, if you think a question is stupid, don't answer it.

[ngaisteve1]

No, make a dedicated "Linux VS. Windows BATTLE COMMENCE!" thread.

Agree. The title of this thread is "Where have all the posters gone?" and not about OS. I think we should try to stick to the relevancy of a thread.

[Horus_Kol]

To get a question answered here you have to post and then wait for an answer (Usually takes one day). It is much faster to find the answer on google (about 30-40 seconds).
I never said that you should not post a question here. I said people should google there question before posting. It would save a lot of time, for the questioner and the answerer (I don't think those are words:lol: ).

There are some problems with simply Googling for an answer...

1. You have to get the search terms just right - this isn't easy for people just starting out, as they don't know all the terms... even once you start to get the lingo, getting results from Google still seems more of an art that some people are better at than others...

2. Even with the right search terms, you can get a load of crap results from the search engines, and picking the right one is, again, hard for an inexperienced person...

3. Again, because inexperienced people don't quite know the terms, they may find the right answer but not recognise it as such, because it uses terms they haven't learnt yet.

4. Even if you do get a decent answer in the first link from a search engine, chances are that you get just that - a direct answer... a lot of sites don't offer explanations or "read further".

Here at HTML Forums, you have real people supplying real answers who can recognise what a question is really about (even if the terms aren't used correctly), and can offer some extra information/explanation/links on the side...

I say that Googling for something is only useful once you have an idea what you are doing...


For historical reference - I found this place by googling for HTML Forums... I got a few other developer sites where I posted the same question... all but one site either ignored my question or I got responses of "OMG, you're such a noob... you should know that...".
Guess which site gave me a welcome and a useful answer...

My first question: http://www.htmlforums.com/html-xhtml/t-trouble-with-frames-14226.html

[torrent]

ooo you were answered by the almighty Ian! Never met anyone to this day who knew as much about Javascript as that guy!!

[DannyB]

Wow, I'm sorry I missed this conversation. I just read the whole thing, post by post.

I found it interesting that there were so many complaints about current issues that were listed as possible reasons that past members have moved on.

A little history:

I literally knew nothing at all about web design or coding. I read some tutorials and got started. Like most people, I ran into problems. I googled up a couple of help forums, this being one of the two that I elected to use to try to get help. Long story short, I got help here quickly, so I made myself at home.

I remember being excited about this place. I couldn't wait to get here to see what interesting things had happened in the lounge area during my absence while I worked. There was always some kind of debate going. I really enjoyed that.

One day I came to the realization that we had pretty much covered all of the territory with that group. I didn't need to post anything that would spark a debate because I already knew where all of those members stood on the topics that I was interested in debating. I don't know what the political temperature is like here now but back then it was very liberal. I am a conservative Christian and it became increasingly obvious that I was only trying to "stir the pot" so to speak (which I most definitely was trying to do, heheh!). Whatever I posted was either an extension of subjects already covered or if it was unique enough to be debated, I was all alone on the conservative side and 25 posters would show up to disagree and run me out on a rail. LOL!

I remember being afraid to post a joke that I found funny for fear that the same special someone would immediately post:

"that's a really old joke. It's been around since the beginning of the Internet."

(you know who you are, heheh!)

It got to where, almost inevitably, every thread had an opening post followed by 12 posts and then the thread was dead. It is still like that to some degree.

It is my humble opinion that over time, as people, in a forum, such as this one, get to know each other too well, it becomes clear that there is nothing left to discuss and people move on.

[wolfdogg]

Sorry guys, where do you start on an old topic? Page 1, or page 100? I started on page one, and couldnt get past Jaywhiting's comments, so i had to bring up the dead.

Correct me if i should have picked up on page 100..... :)

starting with the foul language that will get anybody riled by Micomater
This place is a boring ****-hole now
and continuing with the sarcasm;
my answer will not even have any value compared to one of someone who learnt HTML at a University/College level :O Peg may have attempted to answer some of the questions but still she did not answer the main one, Skipped around the point actually. The reason many posters are leaving are because, after expressing what they think, they are responded to by such derogatory comments as ,and yes i quote:

Could you have possibly spoken TO Peg, since your comments to the board were ABOUT HER , instead of directing your bad opinions OF Peg to the whole BOARD?

If Everybody doesnt maintain respect it will cause this post to degrade. First of all, respect is necessary, if there is no respect, then the post will degrade. If you, not they, but you(everyone) can manage to maintain respect, when coming back at something that you yourself deemed harsh, then thats what makes a wo/man. Always try to be the better man, and if you must expose someone else's shortcoming, then try to approach it with utmost respect, even if they have already slashed you.

Doens't this seem like the path to a discussion, that has no bitter end?

Anyhow, i came to these forums for the same reason as DannyB. It was a very active board, and replies were made wtihin an hour usually. To me, this is almost a necessity these days where time is always of the essence. Thats why boards are a good place to go. You can ask a question, then in seconds, participaters site wide see the question, if they are looking. And we all know, that at any given time, theres those who are bored and just want to reply to topics, and thats how questions get answered. Atleast thats how i get active on boards. Answering questions and helping is exciting for some of us. Also, I like to post. Im just waiting for someone to tell me to slow down, lol.

[Pegasus]

You could have slowed down before you got to this thread, wolfdogg. ;)

But thanks for your words of encouragement. They're appreciated.

[entimp]

... pops head up

ears burning...

It's Entimp again... or is it Moonglade's Eldric ... ack 'World of Warcrack' has got to me.

[vydana]

Ok, I didn't actually read this whole thread but I just wanted to say something that kind of is and isn't related to this post....

so, I've finally come back and I looked at my last post and wow...I feels like it's been maybe 6 months, but no...2 years!!! That's just crazy. I pmed scoutt, and he actually remembered me!!

Anyway, my point was...wow time really flies I can't believe I haven't posted here in that long. It kind of makes me want to make a new website...then I can relearn all the html and php stuff I learned here years ago.

sorry for the reflective stuff, I just had my birthday and it has made me realize how horribly fast time is going by. Before i know it it will have been like 5 more years...and I bet htmlforums will still be here :D

[Pegasus]

(((hugs))) (((smoochies))) Welcome back, Entimp. It's been an age and a half since I last saw you. You're looking as dapper as ever. ;)

(((hugs)))) Vy!! Welcome back! Yeah, it has been a while. *lol* Birthdays will do that to you, you know. That's why I only have the celebration part and not the "birthday" itself. Just remember, growing old is mandatory - growing up is still only an option. ;)

Peg

[Horus_Kol]

hehe... we seem to be regaining ex-posters by the bucketload... excellent :)

[vydana]

Hi Pegasus!! I hear ya' on the growing up....I refuse:D ...no seriously, it's really nice to be back here and see that almost everyone is still here and happy.

Hi Horus:)

[Blueangel]

*sits down, pats pipe and then lights it*

"Gather round, young 'uns, ol' pappy is gonna tell you of a time long since gone from these here places..."



When i started here, there was all sorts of high minded discussion about mathematics, cosmology, philosophy, religion, biology, sociology, politics - and for the most part, the conversations were civil (strong arguments, but civil, all the same)...

Its been a long, long time since we had any of these... but then, we seem to be missing some of the old players - Blueangel, Entimp, Putts...

Hi Horus! :)

How you doing mate?
Peg's exactly right...Real life caught up plus I blew my pc up, and I mean that quite literally. Had a couple of weird years but the future is in sight now :cool:

How's everyone doing?

p.s. You can't blame any high mindedness on me! :lol:

[Pegasus]

(((hugs))) Hi, Ang! Glad to see you again! I missed you.

Peg

[Horus_Kol]

Hi Horus! :)

How you doing mate?
Peg's exactly right...Real life caught up plus I blew my pc up, and I mean that quite literally. Had a couple of weird years but the future is in sight now :cool:

How's everyone doing?

p.s. You can't blame any high mindedness on me! :lol:

Hiya Blue :)

Never did get up to see you, in the end, did I? Shame, would have been nice to have met you face to face...
Still, if you ever find yourself down under, then you, like anyone else, has an invite for beers and barbies :)

If you want to get a little jealous, I have some photos on my website (should have my sister's wedding on there in a day or two)

[Blueangel]

If you want to get a little jealous, I have some photos on my website (should have my sister's wedding on there in a day or two)I've already seen them.. Very nice too!
I think you've done an unwitting swap with one of my mates...
He emigrated to my home town from Adelaide 11yrs ago and is moving down to London this week. It takes all sorts!

My next big trip will be to visit a former work colleague who's recently emigrated to Parnell, NZ so I may pop round ;)

[KWJams]

I've already seen them.. Very nice too!
I think you've done an unwitting swap with one of my mates...
He emigrated to my home town from Adelaide 11yrs ago and is moving down to London this week. It takes all sorts!

My next big trip will be to visit a former work colleague who's recently emigrated to Parnell, NZ so I may pop round ;)

Hello Blue :wave:

[prospero]

Horus — thanks for your comments about Google.
What really gets me is the number of sites, often on the first page or two that return an "error 404".
With the money they're making you'd think their crawlers would pick these things up and downgrade them if they're not updated and reinstalled after a week or two.
I run a charity site so we can't pay for prominence on Google and it makes me cross, (a euphemism for something stronger), when regardless how I code the meta part of the index page, we're still relegated to Google page 49, even when screening for UK sites only. And who does that when they're browsing?
Grr, grr.
prospero

[Horus_Kol]

well - now that you are indexed, you can look at improving your pagerank by getting your site link on other high pagerank sites...

as for the 404s... it scares me how prominent some sites that haven't been updated for a couple of years can be in there - giving out of date information...