Pentagon Strike

[CBrown]

http://media.hamncheez.com/?flash=pentagonlies.swf

I'm not sure what to think of it. Tell me what you think.

[nilsmo]

My dad says a plane never flew into the pentagon. But where did the plane go?

[putts]

From what I've read on this, the first thing to always remember is that the evidence behind the WTC crashes are pretty much unrefutable.

With that in mind, I doubt the idea of the attack being completely "planned" - though it's not completely inconceivable by any means - but it's something that we'll prolly never really ever know because it would all be "classified"

If it was completely an inside job then it was really meaningless because who really remembers much about the Pentagon crash at all - it really didn't "gain" anything by the Pentagon being hit - so, why do it?

In fact, from what I remember of 9/11, the crash at the Pentagon was almost "swept under the rug" almost like the government was trying to hide something they didn't want the public to know, not advertise a fake attack.

I'm sure it wasn't a 757 that hit the Pentagon - anyone can see that from the pictures, so what was it - who knows, but it just seems like too stupid a move for a government to make - there's just not enough advantage to it.

[CBrown]

I don't think it was the U.S. that did it. Even if they did, why would they hit the newly renovated part, they could just hit another part that was going to need demolition anyway.

[entimp]

Here we go again ;)

[Horus_Kol]

what did we do for entertainment before we had conspiracy theories?

[Erikina]

Originally posted by Horus_Kol
what did we do for entertainment before we had conspiracy theories? Yeah, that's the real question - who cares if it was a plane or not that hit the pentagon :P

If there wasn't any footage of the planes hitting the WTC there wasn't alot of photos that showed the plane...it sort of vapourised.

Honestly who would get the plane and hide it, to fly a missile in the pentagon. Family of the people on the plane would've seen them bord the plane and take off

[DA Master]

Yeah interesting, we had a program on Sky One the other night about it, that raised some questions that I think will never be answered.

[DannyB]

Originally posted by Horus_Kol
what did we do for entertainment before we had conspiracy theories?

:rofl: thanks for that laugh this morning HK.

[kevin]

The same people that believe we never sent men to the moon and back to earth believe this Pentagon Theory, so in essence, we have nothing to worry about. :P

[CBrown]

I'm going to assume that it was a plane, just like I assume that a man did land on the moon. However, if one day when I'm old somebody comes out and tells a different story, I'll just smile and lean back in my rocking chair.

[kevin]

Originally posted by CBrown
I'm going to assume that it was a plane, just like I assume that a man did land on the moon. However, if one day when I'm old somebody comes out and tells a different story, I'll just smile and lean back in my rocking chair.

The Moon Missions happened, 100%. The Russians would have happily and easily flown over the moon landing sites and taken pictures to prove the USA had never been there, something that few people ever seem to take into consideration.

The Pentagon thing, well, I put it at 99.999999% probability that the plane hit it.

[alienfish]

Isn't it possible that maybe there was a bombing rather than a plane crash?

[Horus_Kol]

Originally Posted by Alienfish
Isn't it possible that maybe there was a bombing rather than a plane crash?

it wouldn't make sense to not be truthful about this.

That plane had passengers - and if it was a 757 (i'm not sure about the actual type) that means up to 200 people...

that's 200 families who waved goodbye to a loved one for the last time.

[CBrown]

the plane did take off, that's confirmed, but it went off of radar.

could have been a bomb. if it was that explains the cover-ups. they woudln't want us to know that someone could take a bomb into one of the most secure buildings in the U.S.

but I doubt that a bomb would make perfect little holes like the flash thing showed through however many layers.

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by Horus_Kol
what did we do for entertainment before we had conspiracy theories? You REALLY don't want me to answer that :P

After years of serious research, which for some reason is only inspired by copious ammounts of vodka and such, I've come to the conclusion that life is just a conspiracy theory.
It isn't supposed to make sense!

If it did, we'd have given up thoughts and wonderings generations ago.
There'd be no art. There'd be no science. Just a mass of cold, hard facts... and Gees! How boring would that be?!

[Kram]

I do not really beleive that it is some sort of cover up, but you got to admit, it does get the old mind cogs turning.
Assuming its not just propagander, why do you suppose there was no evidence of a plane?

[CBrown]

like I said, I'm just going to assume that it was a plane.

[Kram]

probably best...

[Horus_Kol]

Of course it went off the radar - it crashed into a building!

[DA Master]

Yeah all good and well, but where did the wings go, like the flash movie says plane crashes leave debris. And a plane travelling at 520mph about 2 metres off the ground?

[CBrown]

Originally posted by Horus_Kol
Of course it went off the radar - it crashed into a building!

it went off 45 minutes before that i think.

[Horus_Kol]

and the 200 families that waved goodbye to their loved ones on that plane?

How exactly is that reconciled by a simple bomb?

[alienfish]

Quite true, never thought about it like that to be honest.

There seems to be evidence both suggesting an aircraft, and also that it's not possible, I guess all we can do is speculate, still nothing wrong with exploring all possible options.

[DA Master]

One other option I heard was that it crashed in the Atlantic flying under the radar screen. This is possible you make a good job and no-one will find it.

[-iNsOmNiAc-]

The impact and the immense explosion that followed was so intense that it disintegrated most of the plane parts, I'm sure they found some debris from the plane, just didn't let much info out to the public.

[DA Master]

Originally posted by -iNsOmNiAc-
The impact and the immense explosion that followed was so intense that it disintegrated most of the plane parts, I'm sure they found some debris from the plane, just didn't let much info out to the public.

Just like the video camera tapes, never seen... Still seems wired to me...

[ExtraDog]

Well, when I smell BS on the internet... 90% of the time it has a write up on Snopes.

Here's some reading for your debunking pleasure:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

[DA Master]

Thanks for the link, some cool photos there...

[bendman]

I think it was a smaller plane that hit the pentagon. A plane that doesn't leave behind a fueselage isn't a 757. And to people saying it desentegrated on impact, stop watching star wars. 520 mph won't desentergate 60 tons of steel, maybe 52,000 mph. There would still be very large pieces of plane left. And a 757 has a wingspan near that of a football field, if not over; holes the size of those shown could be caused by a learjet or similar, but not a 757.

As far as motive for telling people it was a bigger plane, what government agency wants the public to know a small jet can pass through 3 layers of their base of operations?

I think it was a terrorist attack, but I don't think it was a 757.

Oh, and a 757 can't exactly turn on a dime, it can't follow a road, unless it's extremely straight. 757's and similarly large planes landing at the local airport have to circle the outskirts of the entire city to turn about 90 degrees to line up.

[Horus_Kol]

520 mph won't desentergate 60 tons of steel
ever see the result of a plane crash?

not only is there energy from the collision itself (a 50,000 plane at 500mph (800kph) is a lot of momentum, and a lot of energy is given when it crashes - E=mv^2 = 32000000000 J, or about 31.25 kt of TNT... Hiroshima was only 22 kt by comparison ) - but there are fuel tanks to explode and take care of the rest.

I'm not saying vapourised, but the frame would have been sufficiently broken up for there to be no obvious parts.

That and the fact that most of the plane was probably buried in the rubble - the building was damaged as fast as the inner ring.


Oh, and a 757 can't exactly turn on a dime, it can't follow a road, unless it's extremely straight. 757's and similarly large planes landing at the local airport have to circle the outskirts of the entire city to turn about 90 degrees to line up.
true, they can't exactly turn to follow a 90° corner, but they can turn faster than you think.

the turning circle you see normally is because of several things - you don't want to overstress the airframe repeatedly (something the terrorists probably didn't care about) and you don't want to upset the passengers with a high-g turn (again, something the terrorists didn't care about).

The prototype Concorde was taken through a barrel roll and loop the loop - and I am sure the airframe on most passenger liners can withstand similar one-off's (repeatedly do this and you will probably accelerate structural fatigue).


And a 757 has a wingspan near that of a football field, if not over;

You must have some small football fields - the 757 is under 40 metres from wingtip to wingtip.

[kevin]

Planes are big, 757s at least, they do weight a lot in relative terms, 60 tons sounds like an immense amount of weight, but you are confusing weight with mass and density.

Planes are hollow structures, the wings are mostly hollow, they are not strong structures. Land a plane hard enough onto the ground and the wings can fall off. Smash a plane into a structure like the pentagon and the wings have about as much force as sticks hitting brick walls.

There is only one sizeable thing on a commercial jet airplane with enough mass and density to survive an impact of this nature in any sizable quantity, and thats the engines which are somewhat dense and some parts made of titanium. Most of the rest of a plane is made of a high grade of aluminum, while its strong, its also brittle, somewhat like glass. If the plane were made of glass primarily you would not be surprised if even a 60 ton glass airplane left few big pieces around or that the wings failed to penetrate at all.


Airplanes are not weapons, they are not designed to have penetrating force, like some bombs and missles which have a dense titanium or hardened steel casing to allow for some penetration into strutures or the ground.

Just look at the WTC crashes, not even the planes motors made it out the other side of those very hollow and relatively weak structures. The Pentagon is built to take the impact of a bomb or missle or other weapon. It is an extremely reinforced structure, high strength concrete (not your average 2000 psi concrete like a driveway or sidewalk) and rebar as thick as bank vaults. The WTC are light weight structures held together by a series of steel lattices and beams that give the building horizontal and vertical strength, and are quite flexible because all tall buildings are designed with one critical factor in mind: the wind.

An airplane is nothing compared to the mass of the Pentagon, especially that low to the ground. An airplane hitting the Pentagon building just feet off the ground would have most of its energy quickly dissipated as heat from friction.

The body of the airplane would accordian into itself as it impacted. Just like stepping on a cardboard box, the box flattens (accordians). Airplanes are not solid, not dense, not made of dense materials, and for their size have very little mass to weight ratio. The Pentagon is dense (concrete and rebar as thick as bank vaults in some areas), has millions of tons of mass and is securely attached to the ground at a very low height, adding to its mass and structural strength. There is no comparison to a 757 and the Pentagon as far as mass and density goes.

Considering all the traces of commercial jet fuel that was found I would say a commercial jet hit the Pentagon, just on that one single fact. Most of the jet fuel would have burned up very quickly, just like you saw in the WTC crashes, the fireballs were the jet fuel buring up rapidly, but there is plenty left to be detected too. And I suspect even a pool or two of jet fuel on the ground or in the building that was not burned up by some chance or other.

[CBrown]

true, but then you'd have to explain why there were pieces from the 757s found all around the world trade center. even blocks away! and then you'd have to ask yourself what happened to the indestructable black box at the pentagon, but the ones from the world trade center and pennsylvania were recovered.

[putts]

I guess the best thing would be to try to find comparable incidents where a plane actually collided into the ground and a building at the same time and see what sort of debris was left.

Yes, debris would fly off the planes that hit the WTC because there was plenty of place/air for the debris to fly off into unihibited whereas when a plane hits the ground, the only real place for debris to fly off into would be in front of the plane and in this case there was a huge building there to catch all that.

[bendman]

Originally posted by putts
I guess the best thing would be to try to find comparable incidents where a plane actually collided into the ground and a building at the same time and see what sort of debris was left.

Yes, debris would fly off the planes that hit the WTC because there was plenty of place/air for the debris to fly off into unihibited whereas when a plane hits the ground, the only real place for debris to fly off into would be in front of the plane and in this case there was a huge building there to catch all that.
If the part about debris only being able to go infront of the plane when it hit the pentagon were true, then the first part couldn't be true. Based on this the only place for the WTC planes to go would be down, and the wreckage was found all over the place, not exactly in a heap at the bottom of the building. There should have been way more debris, plain and simple.

And if a glass plane crashed into a building, there would be glass everywhere. If a metal plane crashes into a building, metal should be everywhere. Even if there were little metal pieces, it would still count for something, but there weren't. It's like a 757 left about as much debris as a couple of smashed up dells... er... I don't think so, not buying it. Unless it were disintigrated on the molecular level, which is ridiculus, there should be enough debris for it to cover a large area, or, if Putts is right, a huge pile of it at the base of the building.

In any event I don't really think it matters if the FBI was hiding something like a smaller plane crashing into it or not.

[cao825]

Though I generally say government conspiracy theories are bull, I do watch and analyze them. The point of an argument is not necissarily to convince your viewers, but rather to make them think. What I think is sad and pisses me off a bit is when people are too closed-minded to even think about it or wait until the either reason it out or find proof to throw away an argument. You can't just say "I think it is this way, so therefore it is."

My two cents..

[kevin]

Originally posted by cao825
Though I generally say government conspiracy theories are bull, I do watch and analyze them. The point of an argument is not necissarily to convince your viewers, but rather to make them think. What I think is sad and pisses me off a bit is when people are too closed-minded to even think about it or wait until the either reason it out or find proof to throw away an argument. You can't just say "I think it is this way, so therefore it is."

My two cents..

But thats what the people that are offering the opinion that the plane did not hit the Pentagon are doing. The no plane theory made me think for a little while about it. But this is old stuff now, I have had more than enough time myself to arrive at a conclusion, especially after seeing other evidence to support the fact that the jet plane did hit the Pentagon.

[cao825]

Originally posted by kevin
But thats what the people that are offering the opinion that the plane did not hit the Pentagon are doing. The no plane theory made me think for a little while about it. But this is old stuff now, I have had more than enough time myself to arrive at a conclusion, especially after seeing other evidence to support the fact that the jet plane did hit the Pentagon.

I was not saying anything for or against this theory and whether it is making you personally think. I showed this to my friend today and he just said it's bull**** and dismissed it as a "photoshop that wasn't even worth of the inquirer" before he even watched 95% of it. That is why I made this post about a pet peave that people should take a chance to think and analyze before making rock solid opinions.

[kevin]

This site has pictures of wreckage inside the Pentagon:

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

[kevin]

Originally posted by cao825
I was not saying anything for or against this theory and whether it is making you personally think. I showed this to my friend today and he just said it's bull**** and dismissed it as a "photoshop that wasn't even worth of the inquirer" before he even watched 95% of it. That is why I made this post about a pet peave that people should take a chance to think and analyze before making rock solid opinions.

OK, I didn't think you were directing your remarks at me personally, but it was not clear you were just just posting a general comment either. ;)

[kevin]

This is interesting:


The Virginia Department of Transportation (VDOT) CCTV system used to manage the Northern Virginia freeway network had cameras in place that observed the September 11 crash site at the Pentagon. This CCTV system and the VDOT Smart Traffic Center were used as a command center for emergency responders and cleanup and recovery crews following the incident.


from this website:

http://www.arinc.com/products/rail_control_ctr/cctv_systems.html

I'd love to see that video...

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by kevin
But thats what the people that are offering the opinion that the plane did not hit the Pentagon are doing. I'm more inclined to wonder what really happened on the fourth plane.
We've got such strong documentation of that one, yet the evidence still isn't finite.

Then there's the mysterious fifth plane.
I've even heard live interviews with people who really should know the facts, yet some insist that five planes were hijacked and some that four were.

[kevin]

Next the Spanish Train Bombings is going to be a hoax perpetrated by the political opposition to get elected.

This no plane theory is way too complicated to make any sense. Is it impossible? No its not, but I give it a .00000001% chance of probability.

Most people say goverments are inept, except when it comes to these far fetched conspiracies that would have to involve a considerable number of people, suddenly they can pull rabbits out of hats and make 757s dissapear. I'm not buying it.

[DA Master]

Originally posted by kevin
Next the Spanish Train Bombings is going to be a hoax perpetrated by the political opposition to get elected.

This no plane theory is way too complicated to make any sense. Is it impossible? No its not, but I give it a .00000001% chance of probability.

Most people say goverments are inept, except when it comes to these far fetched conspiracies that would have to involve a considerable number of people, suddenly they can pull rabbits out of hats and make 757s dissapear. I'm not buying it.

I admit, it is complicated, however if it's planned that way so you dont believe it.

[cao825]

After viewing the first link that Kevin posted (thank you btw) I believe there is indesputable evidence that a 747 hit the pentagon. Also, I had heard that there was a possible 5-7 planes hijacked on the day of September 11th, which turned out to be just planes that took a while to get grounded.

Also, I think we would have more evidence about every plane if the passengers of them were allowed to use their cell phones, as the fourth one was.

[kevin]

Originally posted by DA Master
I admit, it is complicated, however if it's planned that way so you dont believe it.

disinformation aside.....

I guess its a sort of: the bigger the lie the more people will believe it philosophy.

Funny how Bush has been portrayed as sort of this undereducated bumbling Texas hick, and now that he is President he is a mastermind and mass murderer, I guess ole Bush pulled the wool over everyones eyes. From partying frat boy to evil genuis, quite a transformation.

[RobRoyRogers]

Originally posted by kevin
From partying frat boy to evil genuis, quite a transformation. Actually, it's a fairly common transition. You'll find many lazy frat boys entering into the jobforce with an "evil genius" title, even though it's pretty much cosmetic. The evil genius industry is kind of like sales. They tempt you will all the riches you could earn, but they never tell you how difficult it really is--and how much deceipt you'll need on your side--to get to the top of the game.

Thus, this is why internationally acclaimed evil geniuses are few and far between...because so many fail early on and just give up. It's a shame, really.

originally posted by cao825:
Also, I think we would have more evidence about every plane if the passengers of them were allowed to use their cell phones, as the fourth one was. I always took that story of the Pennsylvania plane as a bunch of "rally 'round the flagpole" propaganda. And I say that for one reason: Cell phones don't work that high off the ground. The exception would be if the call was made on the airplanes satellite phone, but it's rare to see those on US flights that are scheduled to last just an hour or two.

[James, MSD]

Originally posted by kevin
disinformation aside.....

I guess its a sort of: the bigger the lie the more people will believe it philosophy.

Funny how Bush has been portrayed as sort of this undereducated bumbling Texas hick, and now that he is President he is a mastermind and mass murderer, I guess ole Bush pulled the wool over everyones eyes. From partying frat boy to evil genuis, quite a transformation.

Thank you Kevin! Your doing a great job, keep up the great work and continue pounding the facts.

If it didn't crash into the Pentagon then where did it crash? We all agree 757's make a huge mess when they crash, so where did this aircraft disappear too? :D lol

Those aren't pictures of the pentagon. Nah, I swear I saw Bush taking those fraudulent pics on his ranch in Texas....AHAHAHA.


JNH.

[CBrown]

nice first link kevin. i couldn't find any of that in my research on the topic. way to go. it definetly shifted my opinion.

[DA Master]

Originally posted by James, MSD
If it didn't crash into the Pentagon then where did it crash? We all agree 757's make a huge mess when they crash, so where did this aircraft disappear too? :D lol

Like I said, one theory was a crash in the Atlantic :D

[cao825]

Originally posted by RobRoyRogers
I always took that story of the Pennsylvania plane as a bunch of "rally 'round the flagpole" propaganda. And I say that for one reason: Cell phones don't work that high off the ground. The exception would be if the call was made on the airplanes satellite phone, but it's rare to see those on US flights that are scheduled to last just an hour or two.

I live in PA and I can tell you, that wasn't a crash because of propaganda, it actually happened my friend. Also, somehow I doubt that people could make up a recorded conversation with someone who is dead...

"Let's roll..." Yes, that actually happened...Fact!

[RobRoyRogers]

Originally posted by cao825
I live in PA and I can tell you, that wasn't a crash because of propaganda, it actually happened my friend. Also, somehow I doubt that people could make up a recorded conversation with someone who is dead...

"Let's roll..." Yes, that actually happened...Fact! Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that I thought the crash never happened at all. That the plane crashed I don't dispute. I do believe though that the story behind it was totally fabricated. A recorded phone call is easy enough to fake. "Let's Roll?" Sounds like jingoism to me.

Aside from all that, though, what about the fighter jets? I distinctly remember when it was first reported that this plane had gone off course and was presumed to be headed for DC, it was also reported that there were fighter jets escorting it. Then, all of a sudden, there weren't fighter jets, and then the plane crashed? I'm not assuming anything, but after that initial report, I find it hard to swallow that it was the result of the people on board. I'd be more inclined to believe that the plane was, shall we say, "disabled". But that's just my perspective.

[kevin]

Originally posted by RobRoyRogers
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that I thought the crash never happened at all. That the plane crashed I don't dispute. I do believe though that the story behind it was totally fabricated. A recorded phone call is easy enough to fake. "Let's Roll?" Sounds like jingoism to me.

Aside from all that, though, what about the fighter jets? I distinctly remember when it was first reported that this plane had gone off course and was presumed to be headed for DC, it was also reported that there were fighter jets escorting it. Then, all of a sudden, there weren't fighter jets, and then the plane crashed? I'm not assuming anything, but after that initial report, I find it hard to swallow that it was the result of the people on board. I'd be more inclined to believe that the plane was, shall we say, "disabled". But that's just my perspective.


Of all the dross floting around about this stuff, the "lets roll" story is about the only one I give any chance of being a true lie. Better to have dead heros than murdered citizens, and even better to have murdered terrorists than succesful ones. Its just the type of story that can get started without much or any effort and left to roll under its own momentum. Then again, it could be the truth.

[Erikina]

Originally posted by DA Master
Like I said, one theory was a crash in the Atlantic :D Exactly what I was thinking...they hijacked a plane - flew it into the Atlantic ocean and then fired a missle at the pentagon :rolleyes:

Or maybe they hijacked a plane and flew that into the pentagon...

[DA Master]

Originally posted by Erikina
Or maybe they hijacked a plane and flew that into the pentagon...

Which is what they say flew into the Pentagon anyways.