FREE: Visual Studio 2005 Express

[rdove]

Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta Products

The Express products, expanding the Visual Studio product line to include lightweight, easy-to-use, easy-to-learn tools for hobbyists, enthusiasts, and novices who want to build dynamic Windows applications and Web sites.

Check them out:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/default.aspx

Any chance we chance make this sticky?

[afterburn]

Looks interesting, but touching a beta product is down right stupid.

Besides it will not work on any of the final products from what I hear at asp.net forums.

More over its completely broken when it comes to 64bit platform, whidbey beta had the 64bit framework but the install of any of the express products will fail....

[kevin]

Hi Ryan,

thanks for the link. I'll think about making it a sticky or making a sticky with links to a variety of software resources of a more general interest and include the link you provided.

Kevin

[putts]

Originally posted by rdove
Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta Products

The Express products, expanding the Visual Studio product line to include lightweight, easy-to-use, easy-to-learn tools for hobbyists, enthusiasts, and novices who want to build dynamic Windows applications and Web sites.

Check them out:
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/default.aspx

Any chance we chance make this sticky?

quick question......is the web dev piece completely devoted to .NET or does it also accompany us dinosaurs out here with general ASP support.

I know how M$ likes to pretend that any product prior to their current one no longer exists :rolleyes:

[afterburn]

Its all .net framework. v 2.0 .... beta also....

not due out till next year.

[afterburn]

Originally posted by kevin
Hi Ryan,

thanks for the link. I'll think about making it a sticky or making a sticky with links to a variety of software resources of a more general interest and include the link you provided.

Kevin

No need to do that with this. It will only be in beta thru the end of the summer with beta 1, then beta to in winter. then RC1 sometime early to mid next year.

If anything add SharpDevelop or WebMatrix for .net framework.

[rdove]

Originally posted by afterburn
Looks interesting, but touching a beta product is down right stupid.


You really don't develop much software do you? If there wasn't beta testing then much of the software that exsists today would not be as good as it is today. Beta testing helps make the software BETTER and if you're interested in the software you want it to be the best that it can be.

[rdove]

Originally posted by putts
quick question......is the web dev piece completely devoted to .NET or does it also accompany us dinosaurs out here with general ASP support.

I know how M$ likes to pretend that any product prior to their current one no longer exists :rolleyes:


I can't imagine why not. ASP.NET is built to support all the classic ASP objects and be compatible with them jsut for that reason. If the software, which I haven't gotten around to playing with yet, is anything like it is in VS.NET you will not have a problem using it with Classic ASP.

[afterburn]

Originally posted by rdove
You really don't develop much software do you? If there wasn't beta testing then much of the software that exsists today would not be as good as it is today. Beta testing helps make the software BETTER and if you're interested in the software you want it to be the best that it can be.

I have mostlikely developed more than yourself.

I know that MS software is like walking on ice from the word go, with placing the word "beta" in any product from them bestows so much confidence in me...

Exactly how many programs have you written with .net framework as of yet?

I myself, 3, very powerful.

Ever look at detail the start kits programs? They are all written for speed to take advanage of the framework, nothing thats real, the code just sucks completely. So nice that the provided a link to start kit for .net 2.0, wait, it says coming soon.

http://beta.asp.net

[rdove]

Originally posted by afterburn
I have mostlikely developed more than yourself.

I know that MS software is like walking on ice from the word go, with placing the word "beta" in any product from them bestows so much confidence in me...

Exactly how many programs have you written with .net framework as of yet?

I myself, 3, very powerful.

Ever look at detail the start kits programs? They are all written for speed to take advanage of the framework, nothing thats real, the code just sucks completely. So nice that the provided a link to start kit for .net 2.0, wait, it says coming soon.

http://beta.asp.net

Quite a few, when I was in school I had 3 classes in .NET with varying degrees of program complexities. Since I have have graduated I have written a few contract .NET applications. My full-time job consists of developing and implementing .NET desktop and web applications. And my MCP is in Builing Web Applications with VB.NET.

[scoutt]

I've built a go-cart out of legos, does that count :D :P

[afterburn]

The one thing I will note in the computer world very little credence goes to creditals. More so when they are MS related.

I do not have them but have built many e-commerce sites, including 3 that consume about 100 GB of data a month. Using MS-SQL and plan ASP.

And to get creditals for .net is like a big oxymoron, as most of the teachers I have seen can't even begin to realize the larger picture. Hell seen a teacher try to tell me how to build a CRM project with flat text files.... When I said SQL, he looked at me baffled about the possiblity. He never used a db program in his life and he is teaching people, web development.....


I have written a .net program that sends those annoying Windows Messenger Service notifications, tested on a 2.4 Ghz P4 w/ 1GB Ram, can create 400 threads and not lag the OS. over 700K messages per hour.

To be honest .net is still an infant, likely to change the core in the next version, most programs you compile now will not compile without help in the next version. Warnings about function calls being obsolete etc.

Not to bash .net just can not beleive they actually have teachers in this world that have the least amount of expirence possible. ERUA is a good example of a school that plain out sucks for its teaching of programming. Not thats what its for...(pilots licenses...) but a very accredited school and can not find suitable teacher.

[rdove]

The one thing I will note in the computer world very little credence goes to creditals. More so when they are MS related.

Where is your evidence of this?


I do not have them but have built many e-commerce sites, including 3 that consume about 100 GB of data a month. Using MS-SQL and plan ASP.

And to get creditals for .net is like a big oxymoron, as most of the teachers I have seen can't even begin to realize the larger picture. Hell seen a teacher try to tell me how to build a CRM project with flat text files.... When I said SQL, he looked at me baffled about the possiblity. He never used a db program in his life and he is teaching people, web development.....


I have written a .net program that sends those annoying Windows Messenger Service notifications, tested on a 2.4 Ghz P4 w/ 1GB Ram, can create 400 threads and not lag the OS. over 700K messages per hour.


Good for you, but you just contradicted yourself in a way with those statements. First you say that there is little credence for creditials, but yet you still feel to defend your creditials.

And if creditials are so unimportant, why are employers looking for them? I mean if you walk into an interview for a .NET Lead position without any creditials, its not going to get you very far.


To be honest .net is still an infant, likely to change the core in the next version, most programs you compile now will not compile without help in the next version. Warnings about function calls being obsolete etc.


You must not have used many of the other versions of .NET, because upgrading my apps from 2002 to 2003 was painless and I didn't have to change any of my code to make it work.


Not to bash .net just can not beleive they actually have teachers in this world that have the least amount of expirence possible. ERUA is a good example of a school that plain out sucks for its teaching of programming. Not thats what its for...(pilots licenses...) but a very accredited school and can not find suitable teacher.


Thats why you don't go to a school for pilot licenses to study programming. Thats just common sense. My degree is from the Purdue School of Engineering & Technology, which is a well known school around the world.

With all that said, I really just posted this so that people could help with the beta testing of new and upcoming products. So people will be informed about products and help make them better for the next release.

It was NOT my intention to start a debate with you to why YOU think .NET sucks and that creditionals are pretty much meaningless.

[afterburn]

I am not defending any of what I said. Just told you my background of development so you can understand where I am coming from.

I guess you have not been in larger corps where the lead developer has 2 phd's 2 master degrees but could not code a hello world app.

I am not defending any creditials as I do not have any to defend.

Actually I have used 1.0 to 1.1, it complained about several XmlTextReader calls as they no longer are supported in 1.1.

I never said .net sucks just beta sucks.

[scoutt]

I am not defending either one of you and I can't code hardly anything in ASP or .net. but you talk about credintials.

a employeer will look more at your experience than he will at all your certifications. I know from personal experience. certifications are not what they use to be. you can be certified but you still don't have real world experience. and that's what it takes to make it. just like a degree in something, they teach you the fundamentals and the theory behind it, you apply that to get knowledge and experience.

I know this went over this thread and I am sorry but I just had to say that as it was on my mind.

and I am not up for beta software either. you can get lucky and get beta software that runs real good, but most of the time I try it it hoses my computer. more trouble in beta than it is worth. but I see your point rdove, if it wasn't for beta than the package can't be as good as intended.

it is like a double edge sword.

[kevin]

To afterburn,

rdove posted a resoure he thought could benefit some people.

Next time, if you have a philosophical opinion to make about beta software, start a new thread and give your reasons instead of implying stupidity:


Looks interesting, but touching a beta product is down right stupid.


beta testing is a long held pratice not just in software but in other products and services and serves a very legitimate purpose.

Nuff said

[afterburn]

Scout,

Thats what I was intending on saying congrats!! LOL


Seriously, the creditials that are setup by MS are a joke.
http://www.angrycoder.com has some articles about what a joke they are, even MS has realized this and asked some of its independant supporter of MS driven stuff to help them sort it out, make it clear and bring the person to a better understanding of how systems work together. Even asking Johnatan Goodman from that site to help fix some of them.

I do not disagree with some of the creditial systems like cisco but just not in general. Cisco seems to have been tough on its standards of understanding for some time now.

[afterburn]

Originally posted by kevin
To afterburn,

rdove posted a resoure he thought could benefit some people.

Next time, if you have a philosophical opinion to make about beta software, start a new thread and give your reasons instead of implying stupidity:



beta testing is a long held pratice not just in software but in other products and services and serves a very legitimate purpose.

Nuff said



Did you read any of the documentation of known bad or not working on any of that software? Its not that I was implying that anyone was stupid, just implying that beta software and expecting any production out of it is . Just as MS is trying with the Summer contest ...


I know its a long held pratice, but its usually done with fully complete product thats missing bells and whistles, not completely broken known bad issues.

The items I had specified WebMatrix and SharpDevelop are free. The new web Dev VS.net is a replacement for WebMatrix. And in the future will cost you money, not much from what I understand however its still not the same as it was before with the product

[rdove]

Originally posted by afterburn
Scout,

Thats what I was intending on saying congrats!! LOL


Seriously, the creditials that are setup by MS are a joke.
http://www.angrycoder.com has some articles about what a joke they are, even MS has realized this and asked some of its independant supporter of MS driven stuff to help them sort it out, make it clear and bring the person to a better understanding of how systems work together. Even asking Johnatan Goodman from that site to help fix some of them.

I do not disagree with some of the creditial systems like cisco but just not in general. Cisco seems to have been tough on its standards of understanding for some time now.

Well to some people the may be, but to businesses they are not. Having certified employees on staff saves the company a lot of money for licenses and software. Where I work we are Microsoft Certifed Gold Partners. Just by having that status we get free MSDN and free software licenses on most software. And everyone knows that if you have 100 computers in the building running windows xp and Office 2003, the licenses alone for those 2 is quite hefty.

Also, being certified may not give you a significant status in the programming community, but having the certification looking for jobs will get you a second look on the resume. ;)

[kevin]

Originally posted by afterburn
Did you read any of the documentation of known bad or not working on any of that software? Its not that I was implying that anyone was stupid, just implying that beta software and expecting any production out of it is . Just as MS is trying with the Summer contest ...


I know its a long held pratice, but its usually done with fully complete product thats missing bells and whistles, not completely broken known bad issues.

The items I had specified WebMatrix and SharpDevelop are free. The new web Dev VS.net is a replacement for WebMatrix. And in the future will cost you money, not much from what I understand however its still not the same as it was before with the product


I was trying to point out you could have made your point and handled the situation better. The merits of your opinion are not the problem, its how you framed them right from the beginning thats a problem. No distinction at all:


Looks interesting, but touching a beta product is down right stupid.


If you can't see the problem with framing everything you say after an opening statement like that, then don't be surprised at the reactions you will get.

Regards,
Kevin

[Josh]

Without beta testing awesome programs like mozilla wouldn't be where they are today. And new versions of programming languages like php would never come out.

[afterburn]

I am not surprised in the least.

Sorry about the way it was phrased as I was headed out the door when I was replying.

Rdove,

I can agree with the second look, but experience is more valuable than books can ever teach you.

The first person I worked under had a MSCE, however this guy was placing complete SQL queries in the querystring, not just parameters. I spent 3 months unraveling everything he wrote when he left.

The second person I worked under had a masters in CS, he had great debugging skills but could not write a stored procedure or anything for the life of him. ended up getting a client that he stole from us back, almost 1 year ago. The code still the same, passwords still the same, IP Address allocation still the same, it takes me months to unravel his code still, ( built complete business system ) takes me an average of 2 days to fix the simplest of things. Suppose to build authorize.net interface next week, I am over joyed forward for that moment.

from all I have seen, creditals will get a second look.
experience will clinch the job.

[scoutt]

Originally posted by rdove


Also, being certified may not give you a significant status in the programming community, but having the certification looking for jobs will get you a second look on the resume. ;)
don't be so sure of that. like I said, I speak from experience. I am A+ certified and I have a AAS in electronics and when I applied to a computer tech job it did nothing for me. I was over looked for the guy that had experience. he didn't have any certs. either. and I talked to some IT admins and they said the saem, they will pick a guy with experience over the certified guy. all because of experience.

and it was a business too.

no business is going to hire somebody that has a cert. just so they can get discounts for software. sorry, that is not real world stuff.

[rdove]

Originally posted by scoutt
don't be so sure of that. like I said, I speak from experience. I am A+ certified and I have a AAS in electronics and when I applied to a computer tech job it did nothing for me. I was over looked for the guy that had experience. he didn't have any certs. either. and I talked to some IT admins and they said the saem, they will pick a guy with experience over the certified guy. all because of experience.

and it was a business too.

no business is going to hire somebody that has a cert. just so they can get discounts for software. sorry, that is not real world stuff.

I totally agree with you, experience it the most important part of any job, having the certification on your resume though, can't hurt you at all.

Sorry if it was understood I thought a that a certification is all you need and experience doesn't have as much weight.

I totally agree with you both on the experience part.