Ever wanted to own that crater on the moon?

[kevin]

Well you can! This compnay has been selling property rights to the moon and other extraterrestrial real estate for about 23 years now. The owner claims to be able to legally sell property rights on the moon and several other planets/moons.

http://www.lunarembassy.com/lunar/index2.lasso

A declaration of ownership was filed with the United Nations as well as the US and Russian governments 23 years ago by Mr. Dennis M. Hope of the Lunar Embassy, to ensure that a legal basis for the ownership of the properties sold here can be claimed. On that wonderful day in 1980, the Lunar Embassy was born.


So get you little crater on the moon with a view before they are all sold out! If not, there are plenty of choice lots still available on Mars! :D

[Gregory]

$15??!?!!?!? exactly how big are these things?

[Horus_Kol]

its an acre.

and you can't legally buy parts of the moon - under the UN Space Treaty, no individual or government can currently lay claim to any extraterrastrial body.

but these guys are on to a pretty good scam. it'll be years before people actually discover those deeds are as good as toilet paper.

hk

[kevin]

Originally posted by Horus_Kol
its an acre.

and you can't legally buy parts of the moon - under the UN Space Treaty, no individual or government can currently lay claim to any extraterrastrial body.

but these guys are on to a pretty good scam. it'll be years before people actually discover those deeds are as good as toilet paper.

hk

Any chance you can dig up the wording of that treaty? I was under the impression that the treaty only mentions goverments, not individuals, which is the loop hole this man used to file his original claims under. Not saying what he is doing is nothing more than just a novelty, but it would be interesting to see how the treaty reads.

[okeeffemarc]

Well, if anyone is dumb enough to be sucked into this scam they deserves to lose money

[kevin]

I found this:

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/outersptxt.htm

seems the treaty leaves it up to the individual nations that signed the treaty to oversee the use of space by its citizens and other entities that falls under the nations jurisdiction.

Article VI
States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty. When activities are carried on in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, by an international organization, responsibility for compliance with this Treaty shall be borne both by the international organization and by the States Parties to the Treaty participating in such organization.


The treaty never mentions that space or moons/planets can't be claimed by individuals, it pretty much covers goverments and nations and is directed towards non military use and free exploration for the benefit of all peoples and nations.

Still, the deeds/grants you purchase from the lunarembassy can be nothing more than a novelty item I am sure.

[kevin]

this one is more recent:

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/moontxt.htm

but pretty much says the same thing about ownership, goes into more technical detail than the previous treaty.

[Horus_Kol]

The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty.

i think the vital part is the "authorisation" - does he have it?

[kevin]

Originally posted by Horus_Kol
i think the vital part is the "authorisation" - does he have it?

No, as a matter of fact, I saw his "interview" on the Conan O'Brien show and he said he never got anything back any response from the USA/USSR/United Nations so he proceeded under the assumption that he had permission by default.

[giz]

The people selling star names all went to jail, so this guy will probably end up the same.

It is a scam.

[Horus_Kol]

authorisation by default - since when was that ever the case.

selling naming rights to celestial objects is legit - so long as you were the person to discover the object.


i don't remember a scam involving stars, but it is quite possible.

[RobRoyRogers]

Even if this whole thing isn't on the level (which no one should believe it would be, since no one has ever been to the moon in the first place!! hahaha...but that's another can of worms altogether), $15 is still a pretty cheap gift that would make the day of any kid who dreams of growing up to be an astronaut.

[kevin]

Originally posted by RobRoyRogers
Even if this whole thing isn't on the level (which no one should believe it would be, since no one has ever been to the moon in the first place!! hahaha...but that's another can of worms altogether), $15 is still a pretty cheap gift that would make the day of any kid who dreams of growing up to be an astronaut.


There is a privately funded moon mission ( http://www.transorbital.net/ )supposed to be coming up pretty soon, should be taking pictures of the Apollo landing sites and the stuff that was left behind, should dispell any more silly conspiracy theories about faked moon missions. I say should because I know it will not for those that really want to believe that NASA never sent astronauts to the moon and back to earth.

Side note: The lunarembassy does not sell deeds to property that is designated as an Apollo site and does not sell deeds to what are called future landing sites.

[kevin]

I have tried several googles searches and can find nothing about any lawsuits, court challenges, or other legal proceedings or legal matters involving the lunarembassy (The Lunar Embassy Corp). I would think they would have been taken to court buy now to challenge their claims, but maybe not. Interesting that there is really nothing out there though in the way of legal matters.

I also tried a search of the founder, Dennis M. Hope and only found one webpage in reference to his name:

http://www.stateless.com/wwwboard/messages/40.html

pretty funny reading really.



"DECLARATION OF OWNERSHIP"


:
This is to inform the sovereign planet of, Earth, that, Dennis
: M. Hope, is now and shall ever be known as, "THE OMNIPITANT RULER OF THE
: LIGHTED LUNAR SURFACE." Mr. Hope. Will here-in-after, also have the exalted
: title of, "THE HEAD CHEESE." Any and all further transactions in
: regard to, Real Estate planning, development, and further exploration of the
: lighted lunar surface will be done at the advice and consent of, "THE HEAD
: CHEESE."


:
All existing mineral, water, oil, and liquid rights will
: henceforth remain with, "THE HEAD CHEESE," until such time as he
: declares differently. "THE HEAD CHEESE," will have total governmental
: say as to tenants and governmental entities that wish to negotiate any
: involvement with the Lighted Lunar Surface.


:
I, "THE OMNIPITANT RULER OF THE LIGHTED LUNAR SURFACE, (a.k.a,
: "THE HEAD CHEESE") on this 22nd day of November 1980, do hereby inform
: the world that the ownership of the Moon, of Earth, is hereby claimed by me,
: Dennis M. Hope. Said property shall remain in my possession until such time as I
: declare differently."


:
Let it also be known to all mankind that I subsequently claim
: ownership of the remaining known eight planets and their respective moons from
: this day forward. As owner I hold all rights over these properties without
: limitation. The planets claimed are known to mankind as: MERCURY, VENUS, MARS,
: JUPITER, SATURN, URANUS, NEPTUNE and PLUTO, respectively.


:
It is further declared that all known rules and laws pertaining
: to homestead acts as known on the planet, Earth, are hereby declared invalid on
: the above listed planets and moons.


:
I, Dennis M. Hope, do hereby make these claims with all the God
: given rights as my forefathers claimed the property known to all mankind as,
: earth. Accept my sincerest desires to cooperate with all foreign sovereignties
: and their representatives and trust I that I will offer all humanity to share in
: this tremendous adventure.


:
Respectively,


:
Dennis M. Hope - "THE HEADS
: CHEESE" November 22, 1980
:
: "THE OMNIPITANT RULER OF THE LIGHTED LUNAR SURFACE"
:
: cc: USA, U.S.S.R., United Nations General Assembly

[giz]

Oh my!


No :cheese: smiley yet?

[RobRoyRogers]

Kevin,

If a private entity provides sufficient evidence that a lunar landing actually took place, I'd be more than happy to change my stance on it. But that the government, at the combined heights of the cold war and the space race with the USSR, said to the world "Look, we did it, we won" by way of a state-funded program that was all but disastrous up to that point is, to me, much like an insatiable evangelist quoting the Bible to "prove" to an atheist that God actually exists.

An thought about owning property on the moon: Suppose you actually bought property, established a residence, and decided to live there. Why on earth (or on Moon, for that matter) would you want to live where there is never a nighttime? That'd be totally weird.

--Robbo

[kevin]

Originally posted by RobRoyRogers
Kevin,

If a private entity provides sufficient evidence that a lunar landing actually took place, I'd be more than happy to change my stance on it. But that the government, at the combined heights of the cold war and the space race with the USSR, said to the world "Look, we did it, we won" by way of a state-funded program that was all but disastrous up to that point is, to me, much like an insatiable evangelist quoting the Bible to "prove" to an atheist that God actually exists.

An thought about owning property on the moon: Suppose you actually bought property, established a residence, and decided to live there. Why on earth (or on Moon, for that matter) would you want to live where there is never a nighttime? That'd be totally weird.

--Robbo


The biggest problem with your logic is that it would have required the cooperation of the USSR to pull it off. The Russians could and did send craft (unmanned) to the moon. They have always had the ability to visit the supposed Apollo landing sites and take pictures of them to prove the USA has never been there. Why do you think they have never done that?

Obviously purchasing property on the moon is a novelty at this time. Dark side or light side, it does not matter. If and when people really do go there again and establish some type of residence, I have a feeling the deeds that are being sold will mean nothing.

The permanent light on the near side of the moon is not really a problem (you could live on the dark side if thats what you preferred and is what will probably happen if we go there. Its much safer than the light side and will be better for most scientific research) It should be easy to simulate night time conditions, and besides, you are being Earth-centric in your thinking. Naturally born moon people would think the night-day cycle to be weird and possibly a great nuisance. The radiation and temperature of the light side will be a much bigger problem.

[RobRoyRogers]

Originally posted by kevin
The biggest problem with your logic is that it would have required the cooperation of the USSR to pull it off. The Russians could and did send craft (unmanned) to the moon. They have always had the ability to visit the supposed Apollo landing sites and take pictures of them to prove the USA has never been there. Why do you think they have never done that?


Kevin, don't be so naive! Everyone knows those photos are filed in the same room as the Roswell crash-site evidence and Jimmy Hoffa's body! :P :D

[kevin]

Originally posted by RobRoyRogers
Kevin, don't be so naive! Everyone knows those photos are filed in the same room as the Roswell crash-site evidence and Jimmy Hoffa's body! :P :D


DOH! I shuda known! :P

[Bica]

Originally posted by RobRoyRogers
Kevin,

An thought about owning property on the moon: Suppose you actually bought property, established a residence, and decided to live there. Why on earth (or on Moon, for that matter) would you want to live where there is never a nighttime? That'd be totally weird.

--Robbo


How about Alaska, 6 months of night and 6 months of day. People who live in those parts don't necessarily have problem with it.

[Horus_Kol]

Originally Posted by Bica
How about Alaska, 6 months of night and 6 months of day. People who live in those parts don't necessarily have problem with it.

Not sure about Alaska, but the 6 months of night has caused the Scandinavian countries to have the highest incidence of alcohol abuse in Europe.

The brain needs sunlight to reset its internal clock, and when you don't get this you can get a chemical imbalance, leading to depression and fatigue-like symptons.

[RobRoyRogers]

Horus, the film "Insomnia" (with Robin Williams and Al Pacino) was based around that central idea.

The film was god-awful, but it was an interesting stab, nonetheless.

[giz]

>> Why on earth (or on Moon, for that matter) would you want to live where there is never a nighttime? <<


How do you figure that one out?

A "day" on the Moon would be about 320 Earth hours long and the night would also be abot 320 Earth hours long.

The wierd bit is that for most of the Moon facing the Earth, that the Earth would hang in {almost} the same part of the sky all of the time, never rising or setting.

For places near the limb of the Moon, the Earth would hover near the horizon and maybe set and rise in the same place on an occasional basis due to libration.

[kevin]

Originally posted by giz
>> Why on earth (or on Moon, for that matter) would you want to live where there is never a nighttime? <<


How do you figure that one out?

A "day" on the Moon would be about 320 Earth hours long and the night would also be abot 320 Earth hours long.

The wierd bit is that for most of the Moon facing the Earth, that the Earth would hang in {almost} the same part of the sky all of the time, never rising or setting.

For places near the limb of the Moon, the Earth would hover near the horizon and maybe set and rise in the same place on an occasional basis due to libration.

Good point!

One lunar day is what we see on earth as one full moon to the next full moon, so that is about 29.5 days. That would take some geting used to if you were born on earth and lived on earth for a long time, but I don't think it would be a very big deal. It should be easy to simulate the 24 hour day as we know it on earth if that were necessary.