Charitable project 1: who's in?

[entimp]

Ok there seems to to be enough interest in getting our collective asses together and doing someone a favour and spanking their site up.

KWJams has come up with a site and a few suggestions on how we should do this. So here is what I suggest.

The project will not be a HTMLForums creation in totality, but by users of HTMLForums creation. Perhaps we could create a tiny banner giving us a collective title that wouldn't state it is a Forums project but by users of the forum. If anyone could come up with a name I would be more than happy to hear it. As for now it would seem the guv is a bit busy but appears the idea has a slight nod... as long as we keep some kinda seperation between the two entities until we get a definate nod either way.

So how do we do this? I believe it should involve anyone who wants to get involved. After all this is a learning curve for those who have a lesser amount of experiance and this is what it is about. Getting experiance and maybe a portfolio of work behind you. So I suggest working groups.

Here is my first outline of the working groups.
Direction: 1 member (as we want things to go in one direction). Different members to take this if we do another site. For now I want to take the helm, if only to get things going. Am prepared to discuss this if someone else wants to take it.
Visuals: Anything that would come under the banner of graphics.
Code: Putting together the source and making sure it validates.
CSS: For the style set up.
Production: For anyone who feels they don't have enough know-how or experience to contribute to the above but can add their ideas and critique the process as it unfolds.

Each group should work closely with its members and the other groups. They should put someone forward to chair the group as well... if only to head in one direction.

Although each group could have a few members the result has to be consistent. So you will have to work closely with each other.

Any thoughts so far?

So what is the site:
http://www.pro-hillclimbers.org/
Maybe KWJams can give us some background.

Anyone interested then reply in this thread saying what group you want to be in, and give a 2nd alternative just in-case you all pile into production for example... we would get nowhere then ;) We can this start to discuss how we do this. Maybe a thread for each group... that we can all view. i.e. Visuals in the graphics area and so forth.

So fire away... any questions?

[Blueangel]

Interesting idea. Visuals obviously need a lot of tarting up.
Count me in as assistant to the Production assistant...or rather, whatever I can do.

[okeeffemarc]

Ok, il, go in production, plus, if you need any online storage space, i could provide TONNES of that.

[transmothra]

willing to do any of the above.

[KWJams]

I built the website mentioned a couple of years ago and am hosting it with the free webspace offered by my isp.

It is a non-profit organization dedicated to the sport of motorcycle hillclimbing.

The site always gets top three - five ranking in search engines since it has been around for awhile.

It is in desparate need of a complete upgrade which I just have not been able to find the time/ambition to do.

I did start a new layout design back in December -->
www.pro-hillclimbers.org/page.html

What I had in mind is to have a black and white onion skin looking back ground main page using the picture shown with better navigation to linked pages.

[fredricknish]

A website for a Hillclimbers Association? I don't think we should make websites for Hillclimbers associations and association which are for entertainment.We should make sites for organisations that do charitable work or serve the community.

We should set up a group(maybe the mods or the older guys) to choose a site from the sites suggested by the users.

How about reviving our defunct layout contest? We can all submit designs for the site and let the mods choose one.Then we can work in groups to make the winning layout into a website.

[KWJams]

How can we all agree on which organization to build a website for without having to hold our nose?

Charitable--Humanitarian--Non Profit :confused:

Most charitable organizations who use less than one tenth of donations to actually help the needy.
They are so top heavy with administration that they have full time tech experts on the payroll to build their websites for them.

Is the intent of these projects to just save the world and feel good about ourselves, or to gain experience working on a team project.

[fredricknish]

Originally posted by KWJams
How can we all agree on which organization to build a website for without having to hold our nose?

Charitable--Humanitarian--Non Profit :confused:

Most charitable organizations who use less than one tenth of donations to actually help the needy.
They are so top heavy with administration that they have full time tech experts on the payroll to build their websites for them.

Is the intent of these projects to just save the world and feel good about ourselves, or to gain experience working on a team project.

We all just nominate organisations and we will have a group which selects the organisation.Having the mods select would be the best as I think all members will honour their decision as we have done in past in contests.My point is we should not leave the decision making to an individual.

All charitable organisations are not like the ones you know.Dont imagine huge organisations like The Red Cross or CARE....There are some who cant afford to make websites,we must make for them.

No we are not gona save the world,we might make a small diffrence or we might feel good that we made a website for a organisation that works for a good cause while learning how to work as a team.

[Ian]

Hmmm, think you are splitting hairs between a Charity and Non Profit org really. While a charity can be a non profit org, a non profit org is not necessarily a charity. But anyway, I think KW's mentioned site is a good site to start out with and iron out the bugs. By the end of it and if it goes well, it could be used as an example to show other interested sites. Well you have to start somewhere right?
A name? How about "The HTML Collective". A little banner or button (made by a member) placed at the bottom of the front page or something could look good. If it takes off, maybe we could make a seperate forum for collective members to discuss their tasks and ideas etc, but lets see how it goes first. I wish you luck getting it off the ground, I'll keep an eye out to see how it goes. :rocker:

[Gregory]

i can help with coding and production or CSS or... whatever you want me to help in :D .

that site sure does need some help. I suggest we make a banner that says "BY HTMLForums Members" and link to a page with all of our names and a link to htmlforums.

oh yeah, and i can make a dumb flash intro featuring a guy on a motorcycle busting his head open :D! haha. no, not really...

so whenever you guys are ready to set this thing up, im in!

[Arctic Dragon]

I don't know if my skills are good enough to be of any use, but I would definitely like to help any way I can. :)

[KWJams]

--> http://wpfta.ods.org/

I started this site for a group of former motorcycle flat trackers which my Dad is a member of. {see members page and "Bobby James"}
These members are for the most part 60-80 plus years old.
There is a lot of history in the list of names on the site.
Sad to say many of them have been forgotten by history and are being honored post-humously.
There is a permament monument in a small park located in Sturgis, South Dakota and a Hall Of Fame Museum that is tied in with this organization.


Pearl Hoel is 95 years of age and is still working as the secretary of the White Plate Flat Trackers Association. She has been trying to keep alive the dream her late husband J.C. Pappy Hoel who was the founder of the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally & Races.

As far as a website that has potential to garner exposure to the group we form, this one has the possibility of being seen by millions.
This site would not take much to spruce it up.
I will pay for the domain and host it on my ISP account.
What I was hopeing to acomplish with it, is each member would have a biography page linked from their name and a picture album for each.

I am sure that each one of those men would feel greatly honored to know that the world has not forgotten the dues they paid when they were just young heroes racing motorcycles without brakes.

What does everyone think of this project to start out with?
Or, are there any other sugestions?

by morrowasted: that site sure does need some help

That comment just earned you a place on the big list I have been keeping! :D

[entimp]

Originally posted by fredricknish
A website for a Hillclimbers Association? I don't think we should make websites for Hillclimbers associations and association which are for entertainment.We should make sites for organisations that do charitable work or serve the community.

We should set up a group(maybe the mods or the older guys) to choose a site from the sites suggested by the users.

How about reviving our defunct layout contest? We can all submit designs for the site and let the mods choose one.Then we can work in groups to make the winning layout into a website.
I don't see a problem with a website for this group at all. This is a pastime enjoyed by a group of people and I would assume would like to express their enjoyment of such a thing. I think it is a great idea.

Next: This is not an officially (yet, maybe) HTMLforums based venture. So at present it isn't down to the mods to say what goes and what doesn't, unless they obviously see something that comes into conflict with this site. The way I see it is like this: If those who wish to give their time up freely for such a venture then there isn't really any cause for complaint.

Lastly this hasn't anything to do with the web layout contest.

If you wish to get involved then by all means do so. The more the merrier.

[entimp]

KWJams... is it ok if we stick with the first suggestion. We can always come back to the next one if you wish to at a later point. That is if this gets off the ground.

We can use it as a trial run... to iron things out as it has been said. Not that, that means a sloppy job.

I am going to start on things tommorrow for it and have a few ideas that I might post while it at work.

My next 2 posts will outline some ideas for all contributers to mull over and one listing where I think those interested should get involved.

[KWJams]

As far as exposure for this groups website design offer, the second would get greater recognition.

I requested a sub forum where the group can operate in, not sure when it will be available though.

entimp, if you want to outline a team structure plan that would define the different aspects of the project for assigned tasks etc we can get rolling.

[KWJams]

To be completely honest, I have been trying to get someone else who is a member of the NAHA to take over that website for about a year now.

If everyone wants to use it as a test project I have no problem with it but if and when I do get someone to take it over I would not have any control any longer.

What I kinda visualize, is placing a small logo on each page representing the design group that will be linked to a default page where each contributing design member's personal sites can be linked from.

[entimp]

Okie dokey then:

A little direction for those wanting to get involved.
First of all I hope you have all had a gander at: http://www.pro-hillclimbers.org/

Doc Type: HTML with use of one or two I-frames.
Site Structure:
Splash Page
-----Introduction to Pro Hillclimbers
----- -----History
-----Forum
----- -----News
----- -----League Standings Results
----- -----RIP
----- -----Links
-----Events Calender
-----Rulebook
-----Contacts
-----Small Page to the contributers of this creation

So there are 6 levels of initial navigation. I suggest a forum for a reason in some areas. This will allow those who run such a site to modify the content without knowing any HTML. In a sense a cheap content management system. The forum I suggest is Web Wiz Forums... an example can be viewed at my site www.entimp.com and it is very easy to set up and mod. The official site link is at the bottom of my site page.

I also suggest a calender script as well. I have a good calender script as well. The people who run the site can add events without having to code the page. This is written in ASP so we might need to change the final HTML to ASP, very easy to do.

I hope the rest of the navigation is quite straight forward and easy to understand.

What I suggest is a fixed width page at 750px as there is little content. It would look sparse if set to a dynamic 100%. Some nice round curves to a console type layout. Here is what I mean by console: www.entimp.com/garra/test.htm it does not have to center but can scroll past the end of the page.

Dark text on light bg so it is easy to read.

So any thoughts? I will PM anyone who has shown an interest pointing them to this post. So if you get a pm I am not being eager but just getting people to gel here.

Next post is about who has shown an interest so far.

[entimp]

Originally posted by KWJams
To be completely honest, I have been trying to get someone else who is a member of the NAHA to take over that website for about a year now.

If everyone wants to use it as a test project I have no problem with it but if and when I do get someone to take it over I would not have any control any longer.

What I kinda visualize, is placing a small logo on each page representing the design group that will be linked to a default page where each contributing design member's personal sites can be linked from.

Thats cool. When you hand the site over it will be forum run to an extent. That way they can change content without knowing too much html.

As for linking contributers, no probs a little page saying who was involved with a link. Kinda like a credits list on a film.

[entimp]

A roll call for those who have taken an interest maybe:

Entimp
Morrowasted
Pegasus
Transmothra
Leoo24
Okeeffemarc
Mikeyp
Blueangel
Torrent
Artic Dragon

Maybes? : Scoutt, KWJams (obviously gets final say on suggestions), fredricknish (are you in?).

Let me know what area you guys wanna get involved in.

Direction: Entimp, still willing to discuss this if anyone else thinks they can do this. I don't want to hog this, it is a joint and group thing.
Code and CSS (for now as one):
Visuals:Entimp, Morrowasted
Production: Blueangel

[Gregory]

hmm, im in on visuals? thats cool i guess. What are we going to use? Fireworks? Photoshop? i feel honored, you put me on your team division thingy :-D

[KWJams]

I have set up forums and message boards before for them and the current on at MSN groups has over 130 registered members and myself and a couple of other members are the only ones to ever post on it.


Site Structure:
Splash Page
-----Introduction to Pro Hillclimbers
----- -----History (Rip can be combined as a hall of fame/history)
-----Forum
----- -----News
----- -----League Standings Results (this will need to cover aprox seven classes of competition)
----- -----Links
-----Events Calender
-----Rulebook
-----Contacts
-----Small Page to the contributers of this creation

[Gregory]

well perhaps no one posted becasue MSN groups suck... but i agree, no forums are needed.

i think the website should be made with PHP, who's with me??

[KWJams]

The logo at the top of this page used if agreed on.
http://www.pro-hillclimbers.org/page.html

[Gregory]

very cool man! oh, and heres a nice flash intro :D

http://24.206.105.78/motorcycle.swf

heehee j/k

[entimp]

Originally posted by morrowasted
very cool man! oh, and heres a nice flash intro :D

http://24.206.105.78/motorcycle.swf

heehee j/k
Did that make anyone else laugh?

As for the head logo KWJams, no probs, could soup it up a bit with some nice filters I have. Will do some in the morning.

A dedicated forum would be nicer as the user would not have to go elsewhere. Also we can edit all the images to suit the layout of the website. The person who runs the site has complete control over lots of things, membership, all member emails, sticky topics, forum heading creations, banning users, allowing uploads of images or not, ladders, deleteing topics, moving entries to other areas etc... very similar to this one.

[Pegasus]

Originally posted by entimp
A roll call for those who have taken an interest maybe:

Entimp
Morrowasted
Pegasus
Transmothra
Leoo24
Okeeffemarc
Mikeyp
Blueangel
Torrent
Artic Dragon

Maybes? : Scoutt, KWJams (obviously gets final say on suggestions), fredricknish (are you in?).

Let me know what area you guys wanna get involved in. Entimp, I'm going to have to take the next one.

I just got handed a major project from the school and it'll probably keep me busy for a while. They handed me 340 colour images that have to be scanned into b&w, set up for printing and sent off for approval. By next week. And rumour has it that there are more to come.

Peg

[torrent]

I do have some agreement with Fredricknish's point of view earlier, however, I have a lot of respect for KWJams so I'm gonna ride off the back of that on this one.

My skill set is as follows:
- Senior Project Manager by profession
- Understanding Model-View-Controller development methodology (just in case you are considering adopting this)
- PHP
- Regular Expressions
- XML
- can help with database design
- XHTML compliancy (all ventures since Ski-Info-Online have been XHTML compliant)
- HTML design
- UNIX (administration, shell scripting, etc)
- attention to detail (some might say "nit-picky" :) )

Very weak in:
- anything at all graphical!

Can I throw some thoughts into the pot for starters?
1) Have a team structure with defined responsiblities before writing the first line of code
2) Think carefully about Configuration Management (CVS?):
- How will changes be controlled?
- What measures will be in place to ensure only one developer is working on a module at any one time)?
- How will bugs be reported, tracked and closed down?
3) Decide whether a development methodology should be employed. E.g. MVC or even just separating the View from the nuts 'n' bolts

Sorry if this sounds a bit "too serious". Working with a team developers can be exciting but also things can spiral out of control very easily, very quickly, which ultimately leads to demoralisation and incomplete projects.

Great start though entimp.

[fredricknish]

Originally posted by entimp


fredricknish (are you in?).



I am out,I might join some other time.

More members might join if this thread is moved to the Lounge or if its made sticky.

Good luck guys :thumbup:

[leoo24]

Originally posted by entimp
A roll call for those who have taken an interest maybe:
Entimp
Morrowasted
Pegasus
Transmothra
Leoo24
Okeeffemarc
Mikeyp
Blueangel
Torrent
Artic Dragon


i would love to take part in this 'practice' project, as it's been reffered to, but unfortunately i have also become bogged down with too much work and will have to pass this one up.

leo

[KWJams]

If anyone wants to scratch my eyes out :D that can be done in other threads.

I offered up the site because it really sucks, is currently hosted, is readily available and is an established website where a third party will not be needed to be brought in to confer with over details.

If anyone knows of another non-profit or charitable organization that can be used, then please speak up.

This project can be a great opportunity for all involved to gain the experiance of working together on a team project.

I would rather withdraw the website offered if my direct association with it would prevent anyone from being involved on this project.

[Gregory]

aw, you didnt think my motorcycle guy getting his head bust open was funny? oh well.

im gettin pretty good at PHP, maybe i can help wit that too, eh?

[entimp]

Ok Mr Morrowasted it looks like it is me and you for now. PHP offer sounds great but for two reasons. 1 I have never delved into PHP and 2 the site has to be configured and maintained by someone else. For the 2nd reason I would suggest HTML as someone with some basic knowledge can make some tweaks.

Ok Heres ya first port of call. Accept this mission if you will. The forum we are going to use comes with some function images... buttons etc. Approx 100 off the top of my head. We will need to do our own to fit in with the site layout.

The image sizes can't change. What image programs do you have? I think you mentioned fireworks. If so that has layers so here is a tip to aid you in this.

Some of the buttons will be the same albeit for the text in them. So create a new image master, design the look etc before adding text. To ensure the text always has the same left, right or center (your choice) create a text layer. Take the button with the most text first and arrange it to your desire. When happy export to the same file format and namee as the image you are re-creating. For the next button just go to the text layer and edit the text without moving it about. If all the above goes well you can mass produce these images without hassle and not have to change the text. Also try not to use a font face that is too flashy.

You cool with that?
If so I will email you all the images that need to be changed.

Hopefully by the time you get these files I will have a rough template for you to view online so you can design these images with this in mind. Try to use web safe colors so it will display a little better.

Let your imagination go wild... umm, yeah just do it. After all this is for a bit of fun, some learning and a whole bunch of experiance and a good dose of helping someone else out.

Remember there is no rush for this, so don't neglect other things like school work and significant others.

Get back to me when you can.

[entimp]

Originally posted by KWJams
If anyone wants to scratch my eyes out :D that can be done in other threads.

I offered up the site because it really sucks, is currently hosted, is readily available and is an established website where a third party will not be needed to be brought in to confer with over details.

If anyone knows of another non-profit or charitable organization that can be used, then please speak up.

This project can be a great opportunity for all involved to gain the experiance of working together on a team project.

I would rather withdraw the website offered if my direct association with it would prevent anyone from being involved on this project.

I like the idea still and morrowasted still does. Have faith we will put something half decent together for ya. Remember ya still don't have to use it though ;)

[entimp]

KWJams does your host have ASP permissions? The site will not be written in ASP but will have one function that will require that.

[KWJams]

my tech support is closed for the Memorial Day holiday.

I planned on changing to a frame site with the layout something like on www.pro-hillclimbers.org/page.html with only five or six drop down buttons made with either flash or animation rollover.

I figure there is primarily 5 categories that need to be listed on the main navigation and then the sub navigation on the remote pages can be text links.

1. News----> just News and link to MSN Group
2. Schedule---> page with points results linked from each event
3. Points---> 250ex, 0-600, 0-700, Pro/Alt, Open Ex, Over 40, Seniors, Overall Points Standing
4. Misc.----> Rules, Links, History, RIP, Videos, Merchandise, Guestbook
5. Home---> Return Home

The stars along the left margin used to be navigation buttons to the top 15 rider's Bio pages but that turned out to be a disaster and will not be tried again.

[Dr. Web]

Originally posted by torrent
Working with a team developers can be exciting but also things can spiral out of control very easily, very quickly, which ultimately leads to demoralisation and incomplete projects.


couldn't agree more.

[Dr. Web]

Originally posted by entimp
KWJams does your host have ASP permissions? The site will not be written in ASP but will have one function that will require that.


static HTML? :barf:

If you really want to build a totally static HTML site, then skip the rest of this post.





There are static Javascript calendars out there, so no need to adopt asp just for that. If your going to use a server side technology... use it fully.

I'll suggest first you pick a server side technology to use, and a supported db. Then find out your hosting stuff (there are free asp/ coldfuson/ php hosts out there with free dbs).

Once you iron out the technology, then you can go for a high level design... starting with the DB and functionality requirements. Once you've decided on these, you can go after menu structures and look and feel.

After all that muck is decided, you can task out accordingly. So, a sample process might look like this:


Technology: php with a mySql backend, hosted at www.feephphost.com

db requirements:
news_table
points_criteria_table
points_data_table
users_table
Content_table
user_bio_table

Functionality requirements:
read news from db
read points, and summarize results from table
allow dynamic changes to points criteria
allow system for tracking users (members for which points are assigned)
read all textual content from db (history, rip, blurbs)
allow users to login, setup bios, access point history
allow admins to edit news and all content pieces. Also, to admin users, set point criteria.
use of session variables track users.






Then you can task out things to people:

You can pair up a newbie DB person with an experience DB person so that knowledge transfer can occur while the db is set up, modified, finalized, and maintained.

A skilled PHP person can set up the basic site structure and guide the other PHP personnel into the strategy for pages and placement. This PHP guru can also divy up the actual php functionality pieces accordingly.

The graphics personnel would push out some sample site designs (in whatever graphic editor), and make a template to be used for the site. CSS can be look and feel, so the graphics personnel would probably assist in a site style sheet. Graphics would need to be delivered in final format (jpg, gif) as well as raw format( graphics editor like ps files).

A project manager might help ensure that all requirements are set, and might help decide on a menu structure to use. (actual menu coding would be done by the php programming group). The PM would also ensure that the appropriate browsers are supported, validation and that testing are done. The PM also has the job of making sure that deliverables are communicated to all groups, and deadlines are met.

You might want a slight bit of documentation to occur as well, that briefly discusses technologies used, naming conventions, browser support, coding standards etc. This document is pretty important to pass on after the project is complete... so that someone with comparible skills can maintain the site.

[KWJams]

will geocities support a site like that? :rolleyes:

Just joking-->:D

[okeeffemarc]

Originally posted by entimp
Ok Mr Morrowasted it looks like it is me and you for now. PHP offer sounds great but for two reasons. 1 I have never delved into PHP and 2 the site has to be configured and maintained by someone else. For the 2nd reason I would suggest HTML as someone with some basic knowledge can make some tweaks.

Ok Heres ya first port of call. Accept this mission if you will. The forum we are going to use comes with some function images... buttons etc. Approx 100 off the top of my head. We will need to do our own to fit in with the site layout.

The image sizes can't change. What image programs do you have? I think you mentioned fireworks. If so that has layers so here is a tip to aid you in this.

Some of the buttons will be the same albeit for the text in them. So create a new image master, design the look etc before adding text. To ensure the text always has the same left, right or center (your choice) create a text layer. Take the button with the most text first and arrange it to your desire. When happy export to the same file format and namee as the image you are re-creating. For the next button just go to the text layer and edit the text without moving it about. If all the above goes well you can mass produce these images without hassle and not have to change the text. Also try not to use a font face that is too flashy.

You cool with that?
If so I will email you all the images that need to be changed.

Hopefully by the time you get these files I will have a rough template for you to view online so you can design these images with this in mind. Try to use web safe colors so it will display a little better.

Let your imagination go wild... umm, yeah just do it. After all this is for a bit of fun, some learning and a whole bunch of experiance and a good dose of helping someone else out.

Remember there is no rush for this, so don't neglect other things like school work and significant others.

Get back to me when you can.

Hi, i could help with the production, also i might be able to setup a forum with invision board (free version), its got lots of features and is very easy to use. Aslo if any storage space is needed i can help with that aswell!

regards
Marc

[Dr. Web]

again, there are free servers that host asp, coldfusion, or php with free dbs.

I haven't seen a requirement that geocities host anything.....


Why would we be limited to geocities (or any host?)

[KWJams]

I am just very impressed at how much effort and support everyone is throwin into this project and was trying to make a joke.

Tech support just said that the only thing that they have a problem with is MS Front Page.

[entimp]

Sorry was going to post some stuff today. Been a bad one at work this weekend with the bank holiday Monday... I have just emerged from everyone elses Carbon Reticulating Aggrigate Particles... should have expected this... but am in the clear now, so a delay of 24 hours and I will post something. I will also get back to the recent posts when I am back at work tonight.

Thanks everyone for showing the interest.

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by entimp
I have just emerged from everyone elses Carbon Reticulating Aggrigate Particles... Gees! Thanks for posting that again. I've been trying to remember it for ages. Just one of those phrases that has it's uses in polite company.

As for the site, I found myself in a newsagents yesterday, flicking through hill climber mags. There's some pretty impressive stills and graphics out there. Well worth a browse.

[KWJams]

Sorry folks :(

But I am going to have to withdraw the hillclimb site. :(

I found some things out that out that would eliminate it
from qualifying as a legitimate website for this project.

http://wpfta.ods.org/ is available as a project site.

I apologize for any trouble or wasted time /effort this may have caused.

[entimp]

Originally posted by KWJams
Sorry folks :(

But I am going to have to withdraw the hillclimb site. :(

I found some things out that out that would eliminate it
from qualifying as a legitimate website for this project.

http://wpfta.ods.org/ is available as a project site.

I apologize for any trouble or wasted time /effort this may have caused.

Oh well. I'll convert the stuff to the new layout for you to have a quick look at, will have a look a little more closely later. No probs anyway, I am sure you have valid reasons to do so.

Morrowasted you are being unusually quiet. Everything cool?

Oh well off to work :(

BTW congrats on 2000 posts KWJams.

[transmothra]

i've been staying away for a little bit lately, because of
a) working heavily on the mars s.t.s. project (http://meat-thing.com/marsdev/), particularly in regard to some graphics (http://meat-thing.com/mars/bgtest.php) for new skins,
b) girls :D
and
c) i wanted to let everyone else hash things out a bit and see where it's actually headed.

so after reading what's been going on with this project, i've come up with an observation of my own:

there are charities, and there are guilds (and guild-like organisations). i can't give up my time for a guild, unless it happens to be one that has some particular interest to me personally. guilds may do some good for their parent communities, but then again, so do major-league athletes (when they're out on bond). i know that the charities that most often spring to mind don't need any help with their websites, but what about smaller, less well-known charitable organisations? i've seen more than a few that have awful websites (e.g., ACT UP, last i checked), or none at all (several of their chapters don't).

obviously, the orgs offered up have been referred to as "practise" projects, and that's well and good, but i just don't have the willpower to make time for them unless i know that the organisation's purpose is to help out more people than just their own members.

that, and i've already done pro bono work for one org, and damn near pro bono for another, and neither one actually did much good for very many people in the end, and only made me want to turn off my computer far more frequently due to the sheer frustration level that is inherent in these things (which i would gladly put up with if, for once, i could actually do something that directly or indirectly benefits people who need benefitting).

sooooooo, where exactly does that leave mr. see-through? limbo, and so i make only a couple suggestions:

why not one of us actually do some real, honest-to-god research on charities and find one that we can't screw up if we screw up, that really could use a site, and that actually benefits people whether we screw up their site or not?

and/or

why not [start with?] design our own site, and maybe we can get THEM to come to US (whereupon all we have to do is vote approval if we get more than we can reasonably do)?

[i](& my utmost-ly sincere apologies if i've come off as being a $%!@& or anything! i hope i haven't!)

[entimp]

Ok here is what I suggest for now.

Anyone wanting to get involved to hang fire for a bit. I am going to go through all these posts and try and merge all the suggestions. I will then post some kinda framework for the system of accepting and then designing the pages. We can then comment on that and re-hash the framework till we are all happy.

For now I am going to kickstart the 2nd website suggestion by KWJams. That way I can make notes as it the design goes along... where to farm out tasks, who to, how to to track the tasks etc.

It might take a little time to get something together but I think it will be worth it in the long run.

As for coming off $%!@& or anything, not at all transmothra... some good comments and all taken on board.

[Gregory]

sorry if i havent replied in a while, ive been really busy (and its the last day of school :D !!!).I can start working on those buttons if you want, i just need some sizes.
I have Fireworks MX, PSP8, Photoshop Elements 2.0, and... drumroll PLEASE... paint :D. anyway, i think i can handle some buttons, just how big are they? and what will the new site color scheme be?

[KWJams]

Their colors they use is purple and yellow.

I know, not my favorites either but they all have purple jackets with yellow font and yellow t-shirts with purple font like my Dad is wearing here at the monument in Sturgis. http://wpfta.ods.org/pictures.html

TM, Good thinking on building a site where clients can find the group. :rocker:

[Blueangel]

Gees!
I was looking at that pic yesterday and would never have guessed it's your dad!
I'm watching and waiting for you guys to see which direction you're going to go in. For a first bash, the present suggestion seems a good one to me, then we can get stuck into something more along the lines of Transmothra's suggestions.
What do you think?

[Gregory]

purple and yellow??? oh then... and what forums are we using?

[BarkingSheep]

i wouldnt mind being involved ....

I can do layouts/graphics. ASP, html, css, photography, Domain Reg, HOsting (ASP, .net, php, CGi etc etc.) or i can just hurl abuse - i mean constructive critismism.... have a look at my sites ...

[entimp]

Sorry folks... been a busy weekend at work... all this hot sticky weather has brought out all sorts of crazy people, I thought it was a full moon first... will post some ideas in the morning.

[entimp]

Ok played with a basic color layout this morning... The will be more purple to meat it out. The top logo isn't placed quite right yet as I am still working on the navigation script.

Just wanted some basic thoughts from anyone who is still involved.

Morrowasted can I email you those image files. The whole load shouldn't be that large.

I was thinking of reversing the colours yellow to purple and vice versa... what do u think?

here is the link anyway.
http://www.entimp.com/kwjams/main/

[KWJams]

Maybe more emphasis needs to be on a white number plate.
The significance of the name "White Plate" is that is the goal a rookie has. To someday earn a low digit number and the prestigious "white number plate" that only a nationally ranked "professional" rider can run on their machines.

Here is a sister organization: http://www.vdtra.com/enter.htm

I met the webmaster of that site last summer and I may be able to get permission to use some of the pictures on that site for art work projects.


The silhouette of the rider on the logo at first looked like Asian script. :) Maybe try placing it outside of the box.

I finally have a day off from work :bounce: let me know what I can work on and I will get after it. :rocker:

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by KWJams
The silhouette of the rider on the logo at first looked like Asian script. :) Maybe try placing it outside of the box. Exactly what I was thinking.
That makes it a cool logo, fairly abstract but easy to replicate and readily distinguishable.
Nice one Entimp.

I'll hang fire til you post the meatier version. The yellow border of the plate needs more punch or pizzaz, but I'm sure you'll already be onto that.

[KWJams]

It may be my google toolbar that scrunches down on it from the top that kept it from standing out as a motorcycle right away.

Maybe tilt the image a little so it looks more like it is in perspective with a vertical horizon. Flat trackers race on horse tracks which have very little banking in turns. They race down the straightaway and turn left -- straightaway -- turn left -- repeat for 25 laps. The logo looks like it is going into a left turn already, it just looks like the front end is to high for a flat surface.

The box that the number plate is in needs to look like a number plate on a motorcycle. (white with a black number)

[Jokerman]

Just noticed this.
I'll help with coding if you want.
I'm alright with javascript, html, and php(with mysql as well.).
Never tried vbscript or asp cause I never really had a use for them nor, in the asp case, a site to host them. But if I began reading up on them I bet I could understand them fairly easy. (You know how all programming languages are similar to a degree.)
I use notepad too.
Well if you're willing to let me help just nudge me in the right direction. :-)
-Tim-

[Gregory]

you can email me the images at hokiehi69@yahoo.com
i may be in and out, seems like when summer came everything got busier! i got camp in a week

[entimp]

Thanks for the offer Jokerman. I will definately take you up on it.

For now I am putting a few scribbles together, a more defined version for getting us all to gel a little better. I like the idea and it would seem a few other people do to.

With a million things on the go at once it will take me a little time but i will do it. Give me about a week and I'll have some better thoughts that are more constructive.

As for now I am still playing with a few ideas on the suggested site and would encourage anyone who is interested to do the same.

[entimp]

Ok here is an update

http://www.entimp.com/kwjams/main/

thoughts please.

I am not sure with the bike image... images can be worked on later. More on the layout and the nav bar please.

Morrowasted I will email u in the next 24 hours as will I you Jokerman.

Colours haven't been done on the nav bar and most of the menus in it are simply thoughts to beef it out.

As for a what I can only call a thesis now will be up as soon as I shrink it a bit for the process of other projects like this.

[mikeyp]

im busy right now with makeup schoolwork, but in a few days i would like to contribute

[Gregory]

ok... what are using for those drop down menus, did you make them yourself or what?

[KWJams]

I have the domain registered and hosted through my isp. I had already started the process when I received your pm entimp.

www.wpfta.org

Right now I am so wore out from work that I can't see straight. :(

[Jokerman]

=:O It's so purple! Aren't these guys bikers?

[KWJams]

yellow and purple with the yellow as the dominate color.

The layout will work great with yellow as the background.

One thing, the number "1" will need to be black on a white plate. The way the ranking system goes is that novices run red numbers and then amateurs run blue I think :arcade: and then the riders who make it to the professional ranks run a white number plate with black numbers.

[Gregory]

er... i see two different websites! which one is it???http://www.entimp.com/kwjams/main/

or

www.wpfta.org

???

[KWJams]

will be at the www.wpfta.org site which I set up last weekend.

The other addy is the project location :D

[Badger]

If you guys need additional assistance with visuals i'm here =).

[KWJams]

like this look?

[Jokerman]

So does this server have php on it?
The one you're hosting KWJams.
If you want I could come up with some php to grab the bikers info from a database and display it in a table of some sort if you want. I'm alright in javascript too but it's not my forte per say.
Just point me in the right direction. :cool:
-Tim-

[Jokerman]

Well for my high school graduating class's alumni page I did something similar to what I was describing so I butchered up some code from that. I think this would work. You'd need to make a mysql table for it though.
with username,firstname,email,last,rank, and whatever else you'd want to add. This is only good if you have php and mysql though. Oh that whole $Zap stuff.. . eh ignore my variable names I get bored coding sometimes. But it's to vary the results list. I used two different backgrounds for my tds. using css.



<?php
$open=$_GET["open"];
if($open==NULL){
$db = mysql_connect("$dbHost", "$dbUser", "$dbPass") or die("Unable to connect!");
mysql_select_db($dbname,$db);

$requete = "SELECT * FROM memberprofile ORDER BY last ASC";
$result = mysql_query ($requete,$db);

echo '<table width="100%" border=1 cellpadding=1 cellspacing=1><tr><td>';
echo 'First Name</td><td>Last Name</td><td>Rank</td>';
echo '<td>More</td></tr>';
$Zap = 0;
while ($pollart = mysql_fetch_object($result))
{
if ($Zap==0)
{
$Zap=1;
if (!(($pollart->firstname==NULL)&&($pollart->last==NULL)&&($pollart->rank==NULL)))
echo '<tr><td class="ver1"><b>';
echo $pollart->firstname.'&nbsp;</b></td><td class="ver1"><b>';
echo $pollart->last.'</b>&nbsp;</td><td class="ver1">';
echo $pollart->rank.'&nbsp;</td><td class="ver1"><a href="';
echo $_SERVER["SCRIPT_NAME"].'?open=';
echo $pollart->username.'">Get more info.</a></td></tr>';
}
else
{
$Zap=0;
if (!(($pollart->firstname==NULL)&&($pollart->last==NULL)&&($pollart->rank==NULL)))
echo '<tr><td class="ver2"><b>'.$pollart->firstname;
echo '&nbsp;</b></td><td class="ver2"><b>';
echo $pollart->last.'</b>&nbsp;</td><td class="ver2">'.$pollart->rank;
echo '&nbsp;</td><td class="ver2"><a class="l" href="';
echo $_SERVER["SCRIPT_NAME"].'?open=';
echo $pollart->username.'">Get more info.</a></td></tr>';
}
}
echo '</table>';
mysql_free_result($result);
}
else
{
$db = mysql_connect("$dbHost", "$dbUser", "$dbPass") or die("Unable to connect!");
mysql_select_db($dbname,$db);
$requete = "SELECT * FROM memberprofile WHERE username='$open'";
$result = mysql_query ($requete,$db);
$pollart = mysql_fetch_object($result);
echo '<table width="100%" border=4 cellpadding=1 cellspacing=1>';
echo '<tr><td class=\'title1\'>User &nbsp;</td><td class="ver1"><b>'.$pollart->username;
echo '</b>&nbsp;</td></tr>';
echo '<tr><td class=\'title1\'>First Name &nbsp;</td><td class="ver1">'.$pollart->fullname;
echo '&nbsp;</td></tr>';
echo '<tr><td class=\'title1\'>Last Name &nbsp;</td><td class="ver1">';
echo $pollart->last.'&nbsp;</td></tr>';
echo '<tr><td class=\'title1\'>Rank &nbsp;</td><td class="ver1">';
echo $pollart->rank.'&nbsp;</td></tr>';
echo '<tr><td class=\'title1\'>Email &nbsp;</td><td class="ver1">';
echo $pollart->email.'&nbsp;</td></tr>';
echo '</table><br />';
mysql_free_result($result);
}
?>


There edited my post so it all would fit in the htmlforums window. :-) I think I cut it up right tell me if you use it and it gets an error though.

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by KWJams
like this look? Looking good!
As for the visuals...please keep the grey background diagonals whatever you do. They break the colours down well and stop them from becoming to garrish, which is very often the case when working with complementary colours.
Nice work you guys.

[KWJams]

I liked the way the first motorcycle looked myself. The Asian script looking bike. :)
No great skill that I applied, :D just added a yellow blind texture to bring out the purple outline.

Jokerman,
We have to remember who the primary audience (WW11 Generation) will be to this site so we do not make it too technical for them to enjoy it.
As an example the forums would be a great addition but all the different forum categories may just be confusing. One simple category where they can post and read messages from each other may be the best approach.

[KWJams]

These guys look like extras in an old Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin black & white movie.

They are mechanics in the pit area at the now world famous Daytona race. They slept on the ground next to their cars in the pit area on the beach back then.

The number plate on the front of the motorcycle is a square piece of tin that they hand painted the numbers on.

Not to many of these guys still alive. :( Here is the latest one to pass away.
http://www.ama-cycle.org/news/2003/roeder.asp

[KWJams]

the right side of logo with a big fat hand painted looking #1

[entimp]

Thanks for comments so far.

I will drop in the yellow background. The blind effect makes ot hard on the eyes. Will drop in a solid one and then tell me what you think.

The number 1 I will give a solid white back ground. Was trying to give it a little metallic gleam as if it were a metal plate. Also I will make the number black.

Will drop in a test froum for you in the morning so you can get a feel for how simple it will be. The graphics for the forum are the ones Morrow is going to work on.

Will give this thread another shout when I drop the forum in and change the nav colours.

Morrowasted the script I use for the nav is fairly stright forward to set up. I didn't write it but have tweaked it here and there to get it to the point it is. Will send you it if you want.

[Blueangel]

Originally posted by KWJams
I liked the way the first motorcycle looked myself. The Asian script looking bike. :) I agree but I do like both graphics.
Maybe you could get the site members to choose for themselves as a way of kicking things off on the new site? I'm sure they'd appreciate a little direct involvement as they'll probably end up wearing the logo in some form.

Thanks for the Roeder link.
It's giving me a real feel for your audience. To my mind they're second generation bikers...the first being the pioneers of biking and the WWII vets who became the first Hell's Angels.

I'm going to get some grief when my close friend sees this :D We already bicker because he rides a CPR 1000 and I love Harleys.

[KWJams]

These guys are the complete opposite of the Outlaw groups like the Hell's Angels who rebelled against the post war establishment before they became involved with crime.

The term for outlaw bikers came from riders who competed in non AMA events aka outlaw events. They started calling them 1%'ers and they still wear small patches identifying themselves as 1%'ers.

[entimp]

Ok here are a few changes:
http://www.entimp.com/kwjams/main/default.asp

Still have to change the plate and the bike image.

KWJams sign up to the forums and I will give you an admin permissions so you can have a proper look around the forum and see how it is run. Morrowasted if you would like the same then do so as well.

Morrow all the images are there now in the forums... have a look around a choose a few to play with. Let me know what they look like... you know all the buttons etc.

Is that ok with you?

As for anyone else, any comments or creative input would be great.

I still need to change the CSS with the forums and the colours of the tables in it so dont worry it wont look like that.

I agree with you KWjams in keeping the forums simple. I think it is a great way of letting your members interact with the site and each other. Let me know what you think.

I am off to bed and will come back later...

[KWJams]

Went through a folder of paperwork I had and found an old letterhead logo they use.
Can't recall if they use it much though.

[entimp]

I like it. I will try to clean it up a bit and drag it in.

[KWJams]

I am looking through my pictures for a better looking bike.

[KWJams]

Here is the same letterhead logo that scanned better.

[KWJams]

a banner they have hanging on the wall at the club house

[Gregory]

this isnt a serious button or anything, i just want to know what colors i should use to make sure it doesnt clash.
http://24.206.105.78/new_post.gif

[entimp]

I like the marble type yellow background however the border is a little too pink. The font needs to be a bit bolder too. The font size is fine. Also I dont think it needs to be underlined but I could be persuaded otherwise with a bolder font.

If you want the same colour purple as on the page then do a screen grab. Open it in the same arty package and use the ink dropper to select the colour. You may want to increase the spread of the sample area to about 5px to avoid a light pink colour.

If all else fails I can get a close web safe rgb for you in the morning.

I like it... lets see what you can do with those suggestions.

I would have done more to the page but have been toturing myself with learning some VBscript and listening to the cricket at the same time.

[Brummy]

Looking good entimp and co, fair play to you. ;)

Originally posted by morrowasted
i just want to know what colors i should use to make sure it doesnt clash.
Morrow you may find a colour picker useful, there's loads of em' about and most are free I believe. Pixie (http://www.nattyware.com/pixie.html) is a little unobtrusive jobbie, maybe take a look at it and see what you think?

[KWJams]

I was thinking the members of the forum may like their number plate as an avatar. Check the attachment below.

Also I cobbed up some meta tags -->

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<META NAME="TITLE" CONTENT="White Plate Flat Trackers Association">
<META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="Homepage of the White Plate Flat Trackers Association which is made up of past, present and future flat track professional motorcycle racers.">
<META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="flat track motorcycle racers,professional flat track racers,wpfta,ama,american motorcycle association,harley davidson motorcycle racers,indian motorcycle racers,triumph motorcycle racers,bsa motorcycle racers,sturgis south dakota,jackpine gypsies,sturgis motorcycle museum,">
<META NAME="OWNER" CONTENT="durtrider@hotmail.com">
<META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="KWJams">
<META HTTP-EQUIV="EXPIRES" CONTENT="">
<META HTTP-EQUIV="CHARSET" CONTENT="ISO-8859-1">
<META HTTP-EQUIV="CONTENT-LANGUAGE" CONTENT="English">
<META HTTP-EQUIV="VW96.OBJECT TYPE" CONTENT="Homepage">
<META NAME="RATING" CONTENT="General">
<META NAME="ROBOTS" CONTENT="index,follow">
<META NAME="REVISIT-AFTER" CONTENT="4 weeks">

[entimp]

Cool I'll drop the metas into the header include in the 24hrs. Will be a bit busy this weekend wrapping up another site but I will be doing some more stuff to the bike site.

Morrow how are those images coming along?

[Gregory]

sound good, KW. I liked the marble too... here:
http://24.206.105.78/new_post2.gif

eh... i dunno... wuddya think?

[entimp]

I like it...

Ok next convert a good handful of the images to this format and we will drop em in to see what they look like.

Remember to keep the file names and extensions the same.

Good work

[Gregory]

so wait... do you want me to make the rest of the buttons, or are you going to?

[entimp]

It would be nice if you could... is that ok? Just do 5 or 6 so I can drop em in so we can see what they look like.

[Gregory]

i can do it... darn, i didnt save any png files!!!

how can edit the text that is already in there? I am using Fireworks MX... lemme try it in Photoshop.

nope, ill just have to remake it.... lemme try to remember what i did.

here:
http://24.206.105.78/reply_post.gif
http://24.206.105.78/email_user.gif
http://24.206.105.78/private_msg.gif
http://24.206.105.78/submit_reply.gif
http://24.206.105.78/preview_reply.gif

[entimp]

Ok as for editing the text you will need to keep a master copy in the original creation format. In photoshop this would be as PSD. Then you can edit the text layer each time then export it to jpg or gif. It will also keep the alignment the same, I would suggest keeping in centered.

As for the buttons they are good but they would look better if the font size was the same in each case.

If you want I dont mind doing them if you are too busy.

[entimp]

No worries Morrow... I'll give it a go this weekend.

[mikeyp]

school is done for me. just he last few *pointless* days. so im willing to take up some tasks to help with this project.

[entimp]

Ok cool... we'll give Morrow a day to get back to us. Have a crack at the forum images in the mean time. You can view them by visiting the site... link is in this thread, and back a few posts. The forum ones are the ones I am referring to.

[KWJams]

Just waiting for permission to use it.

It is from a 60's magazine cover

[mikeyp]

Originally posted by entimp
Ok cool... we'll give Morrow a day to get back to us. Have a crack at the forum images in the mean time. You can view them by visiting the site... link is in this thread, and back a few posts. The forum ones are the ones I am referring to.

alright, you mean the buttons for the forums that morrow did right?